Forest Service, Friends of Inyo on road closures

As citizens sound off against forest road closures, Forest Service Trails Coordinator Marty Hornick asks for calls with specifics, and Friends of the Inyo Director Stacy Corless responds to attacks on her organization’s work.

Hornick did confirm that the Forest Service is willing to make adjustments in the current Travel Management Plan of road closures.  He said, “We have already begun to look at some things – either mistakes in the document or things that can be fixed readily.”  The reconsideration of road closures will cost money, and the Forest Service effort to get a state grant for that purpose did not come through.  Hornick still maintained that the Forest is “looking at some places” for changes.

Asked to comment on the angry outpouring against road closures, Hornick said, “One of the sad things is that an awful lot of people are concerned now when we did have seven years of planning and four or five years of intensive public comment.  We did a massive outreach,” he said, “and conducted some 50 public hearings.”  Hornick said it “saddens” him that people are now saying the Forest Service blasted through or ignored comments.

Hornick said he does want to know about the key places to make improvements.  “We need good feedback,” he said.  Hornick pointed to Mono Supervisor Vikki Bauer who he said sat down with constituents and held meetings in June Lake.  Hornick said, “They were developing specific, key concerns” for us to look at. “We will prioritize these,” said Hornick, “and plan to fix them.”  He did say the Forest Service “can not fix every problem.”

Hornick restated that the Forest Service is supervising and working with Friends of the Inyo, which got a $600,000 State OHV grant for road restoration. Critics of the group have accused the Friends of contributing to the lack of access.  Director Stacy Corless said, “We believe in stewardship of the land.”  She said the current work is all part of that and that there’s “no black helicopter” circling overhead to take over the land.  “It’s for the health and enjoyment of the land,” she said.

Corless said the way to deal with things now is to talk to Marty Hornick, go out on the ground and make a case.  “That’s the way to have resolution,” she said.  Corless said she does have sympathy for people who are “hard-working citizens who don’t have the time to go to meetings.  I know their frustration.”  She added that it’s “not appropriate to vandalize.”  She supports “getting out on the land together, place by place to work together to make things better.”

No one is complaining about other work by the Friends who recently organized 44 volunteers to open Duck Pass, TJ Barrett Trail and other trails in the Lakes Basin.  Corless pointed out that the Forest Service has been overwhelmed with the Reds Meadow blowdown of thousands of trees. Their non-profit organization has filled in.  “Our mission is caring for Eastern Sierra public lands.  We are not anti-OHV,” said Corless.

Encouraged by the Forest Service to help with the road closure plan, the Friends of the Inyo applied for California Parks OHV funds.  Corless said one-third of those funds are specifically for restoration work, “to mitigate OHV damage,” she said.

Corless had a message for critics. “We are here now.  Please don’t turn anger and frustration into vandalism.  Talk to the Forest Service.”

(Marty Hornick, Trails Program Manager for the Inyo National Forest Service, 760-873-2461,, 351 Pacu Lane, Suite 200, Bishop, CA 93514)


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143 Responses to Forest Service, Friends of Inyo on road closures

  1. Truth Seeker June 26, 2012 at 3:17 pm #

    Nice try Stacy. You did not answer one of the submitted questions. If your organization is all about honesty and truth, please answer all the submitted questions here and post them on your web site as well. The ball is in your court if you have nothing to hide.

    The public who provides the tax money (Green Sticker Fees) that you are receiving, deserves answers. It seems rather ironic that the people who pay the green sticker fees to ride on public lands, are funding you and the USFS to deny them access. Please explain that.

    • Mike Prather, Lone Pine June 26, 2012 at 4:43 pm #

      Friends and I helped form Friends of the Inyo in the 1980’s as the Inyo NF Management Plan was being redone. We’re still here in 2012 ready to work on projects that foster the health and sustainability of the public lands here in the Eastern Sierra. All of us are local and work here. We have kids in school and are active in all aspects of our communities. I’ve lived in Inyo since 1972, but how long you have lived here doesn’t matter because these lands belong to everyone in America. Friends of the Inyo has remained a valuable citizen participant organization because we work hard, we are open and inclusive, we tell the truth and we speak with respect and dignity. This year, as in the past, we fund crews that are clearing windfalls and repairing trails. We rode in the Mule Days parade as a guest of the Friend of the Packers Award winning Back Country Horsemen. Last year we funded a wilderness ranger in the northern forest where once again no wilderness ranger is budgeted for by Inyo NF. This year we are funding another. Our program of trail work and visitor welcoming in the Mammoth Lakes Basin has received tremendous praise from all corners. FOI has worked on habitat improvement for the Owens Valley pupfish, we have removed invasive salt cedar that dries up wildlife springs in our desert mountains, cleaned up illegal pot farms on public lands, worked on protection of the Alabama Hills and worked with children and families in both Inyo and Mono counties. I am proud of Friends of the Inyo and urge everyone to join our organization to work in and to enjoy all of our public lands – not my lands, not your lands, but OUR lands.

      • leatherbag June 26, 2012 at 5:11 pm #

        So what Mr. Prather is showing is that it is entirely possible for a parasite to grow a host.

        • hisierragal June 27, 2012 at 8:03 am #

          Tactics revealed. Derision may be all you have to go on, eh?

          • leatherbag June 27, 2012 at 5:53 pm #

            hsg, I had ta give you a thumbs up for word usage. Very good.

            However this is not a new game as alluded to and obviously known to many of the posters, as well as those concerned. These groups start as little “yes” groupies. As they gain trust and prominence in the eyes of the ‘host’, they have a greater voice, greater accepted input and decision making power.

            As the money begins to roll in from the ‘host’, they soon have their head secured deep enough that it enables their ability to begin implementing the agenda that they desired to work toward in the first place as well as maintain their business.

            The best way for an enemy to win the war is to infiltrate the castle and get the King to accept you as a trusted ‘friend’ and be his advisor.

            You say “derision” from your side of the isle; I call it an “analogy” from my view point, having observed such tactics first hand.

      • Brian June 26, 2012 at 5:59 pm #


        Anyone can visit the FOI website and see what is being done. You have failed to address the concerns many citizens have brought up here about this SPECIFIC issue. Your website mentions part of the mission of FOI is “preservation”. Preservation should apply to wilderness areas. I would like to instead see “conservation” instead applied to the lands motor vehicles have access to. A huge amount of money is being wasted blocking roads that have been in use for decades instead of focusing on newly formed roads or roads that go through a sensitive area.

      • Truth Seeker June 26, 2012 at 7:09 pm #

        Great work by FOI which they talk about on their web site as well as show pictures.. They should be proud of this work.

        Why don’t the mention taking 600K from the Forest Service to close roads that local people have used for decades? Where are the pictures on the FOI web site of their log barricades they are building? They are acting how people act when they know they are doing something wrong but they can’t resist the money.

      • NewDay June 27, 2012 at 6:49 am #

        Thanks for the Facebook link to this, Mike. It’s amazing that people could be so hostile to a volunteer group that is trying to make the forest a better, healthier system for everyone’s benefit.

        • Jerry C. June 27, 2012 at 11:55 am #


          I could be wrong, but I think the people on here are concerned (angry) about access to public lands (or loss thereof), and the “groups” that are involved with making it into a business.

          Lets try to stick to the facts.

          But I am glad the whole Facebook thing is working out for you!

      • Really Fed up June 27, 2012 at 7:42 am #

        What the heck!
        You Friends got 600K bucks from the State in a grant from the OHV funds to Restore roads and you are using it to restore the Forest. YOO people need an Audit. Your Free ride is OVER MS Corless. OVER.

        Will someone post this Grant Award. If in fact Restoration of roads is the objective. Then we need to get a injunction of Corless and her cronies and SEIZE those assets.

        What out Corless. The Courts , the Auditors are a coming!!!!!!

        • Mad as hell June 27, 2012 at 1:26 pm #

          It’s just amazing that they’re using OHV funds to close roads.


  2. Jenny B June 26, 2012 at 4:27 pm #

    We must realise that NGO and foundations like the friends of Inyo, MLTPA and the thousands of others are heavily funded from grants. They only get their grants if they go with the big agenda created by ‘green bureaucrats’who could care less about your local economy and only look at humans a carbon producing units.
    These local NGOs and foundations will receive more grants if they infiltrate and lobby town and county governments to push for more green non-sense; otherwise, they wont have a job. Have you noticed how much say and power these groups are gaining lately? These dirt road closures are just the beginning.

    They moved from simple trails to road closures pretty quick. What will be next on their list after they close all the roads? Closing paved roads? This is going on nation wide. Many town and county governments across the nation are ending their ICLEI memberships to stop this nonsense. By the way, Mammoth lakes is an ICLEI member.

    • hisierragal June 27, 2012 at 8:08 am #

      who are these “green bureaucrats” I keep hearing about?

  3. Jerry June 26, 2012 at 4:31 pm #

    Oh Lord, what the heck? What is this, the FOI and FS vs. us country-dwellers? Take a long hard look; it’s not just motorized users you people are pissing off. This entire thing in unconstitutional to the core. You know it, I know it.

    “…Hornick said, “One of the sad things is that an awful lot of people are concerned now when we did have seven years of planning and four or five years of intensive public comment. We did a massive outreach,” he said, “and conducted some 50 public hearings.” Hornick said it “saddens” him that people are now saying the Forest Service blasted through or ignored comments”

    We’re sad too. But what about all those people who weren’t in the OHV loop? Like campers and hikers and mountain bikers, climbers, Sunday drivers, etc? Or what about the people who work nights, or who weren’t in the area at the time, or who didn’t think they needed to show, or who didn’t have a car at the time?
    What about the people that actually trusted you to do a good job?

    It sounds like the TMD has failed. It was doomed from the beginning. It’s turned into a lose-lose for most, and a win for those who’ve made a business out of it and who would rather see offroaders out of the forest (Friends of the Inyo). I know the Forest Service is a neutral party in this mess, it’s just too bad they can’t stand up for the Inyo residents a bit more.

    “We believe in stewardship of the land.” She said the current work is all part of that and that there’s “no black helicopter” circling overhead to take over the land. “It’s for the health and enjoyment of the land,” she said.

    No, but I do see green trucks circling around – paid for by greensticker dollars. And if you don’t get your way, you’ll just start suing everyone. Please answer this: what exactly is the problem that your organization is now “healing?” I fail to see the destruction from all these OHV vehicles, but I do see a lot that your organization has now destroyed. I for one want answers!

    “We are here now. Please don’t turn anger and frustration into vandalism. Talk to the Forest Service.”

    Oh, and we’re here too. Like the roads you closed, we’ve been here much much longer. Please don’t make the closing of OUR trails and roads into your own little “non profit” business.
    Talk to the locals.
    Oh, I forgot.
    They didn’t participate enough.

    • Big AL June 26, 2012 at 11:49 pm #

      Good post jerry

  4. Sean June 26, 2012 at 5:52 pm #

    One way to fight back is to contact the grant issuers and let them know you will vote against them for this. Contact your local state and federal representatives. Write letters. It does work.

    FS and FOI – You need to stop closing roads to vehicles. Period.

    And regarding the FS comments about public input basically they are saying that if we the people do not tell them not to they will limit our freedoms and access.

    What about handicapped people who need to drive on these roads to access area they want to get to? Can you say Class action lawsuit against FS and FOI?

  5. Rob June 26, 2012 at 6:38 pm #

    Using OHV grant money to close OHV areas for the alleged “health and enjoyment of the land” according to FOI’s interpretation of “enjoyment of the land” (non-OHV use) is obscene. The OHV grant money is for promoting OHV access and use – NOT eliminating it.

  6. Not freinds of inyo June 26, 2012 at 7:05 pm #

    All that time and grant money to put sticks across dirt roads? What a joke. What did you really do with the grant money?

    • Truth Seeker June 27, 2012 at 10:42 am #

      It would be interesting to see how much of the grant FOI is taking for “Adminstrative Costs” . 15% to 20% is the usual range. That would be Stacy’s salary most likely.

      • Big AL June 27, 2012 at 8:11 pm #

        Yes Truth Seeker, that was what I was getting at .. or was it speculating .. or was it folly?

        We have seen how other organizations .. some humanitarian orgs. that have their administration members paid exorbitant amounts of money.

  7. martin June 26, 2012 at 7:07 pm #

    The FOI and local off-road community had many local meetings in Bishop and came up with the plan that the Forest Service adopted. Go ask thetrail users in Bishop.

  8. Truth Seeker June 26, 2012 at 7:39 pm #

    Here is how they do it. They have public meetings on days when people work or far from the affected areas. What they will never do is post on the internet a map of the roads that they propose to close so people can study it and respond in writing, leaving a paper trail of opposition.

    Now that it is a done deal, I predict they will release the map but it will be too late for anyone to say or do anything about it. They are very clever but also very dishonest. Of course FOI loves this game and enjoys taking the fees that OHV users pay to mantain trails and roads, to close trails and roads. Perfect!

    In other words; “We will have to pass it, in order for you to see what is in it.”

    • Big AL June 26, 2012 at 11:56 pm #

      Yes truth seeker .. they have played the game well .. I think .. if we can harness all of this energy we are seeing here in opposition to this plan .. we can turn the tables on them .. right now I see a good awakening with people, in seeing how dishonest and underhanded this process is.

      We have tools available, just as they did.

    • hisierragal June 27, 2012 at 8:14 am #

      the maps were on the internet and were available for viewing at your convenience at the FS office as well, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt that you are not aware of this fact in spite of it being in print over and over and over again but you may want to be a little careful about your use of the word “dishonest” now – you can’t claim ignorance anymore – sorry –

      • John Barton June 27, 2012 at 10:14 am #

        Where are the maps now? The “new” maps at the visitors office are very different than the ones on the walls during the comment period up to the end! Let’s see both be made available and then we’ll see if the word “dishonest” still applies!

      • Truth Seeker June 27, 2012 at 10:38 am #

        They refuse to release copies of the maps to the citizens who pid for them. They refuse to post a digital version on their website. They refuse to post all the comments regarding the closures.

        With hundreds of road closures, people need to have maps with them. Having a very complicated map at the USFS that people can only look at is not what the people who paid for the map want or need. It is just more coverup by the uSFS and FOI.

      • Big AL June 27, 2012 at 8:14 pm #

        I never claimed ignorance, but you must have. We all see how the process works, however you see it, we see it as it is, you can try to sugar coat it if you like hisierragrl, and what are you sorry about .. your voicing your opinion.

    • hisierragal June 27, 2012 at 8:49 am #

      I attended a couple of meetings in the evening – I guess you did not go at all –

      • Big AL June 27, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

        So you attended a couple meetings hisierragrl .. and can say for fact, that people did not attend the other meetings that .. you did not attend?

    • Sydney Quinn June 27, 2012 at 1:46 pm #

      Dear TS,
      I can sympathize with all your frustration about public process. A similar situation is true of the Adventure Trail which happens to go down my road. Meetings were not well publicized. Many wrote concerns addressing the Mitigated Negative Declaration which were totally ignored by Inyo County claiming there would be no impacts of any significance to residents or wildlife. In my opinion, it was a “back door deal” and a slam dunk. I am not particularly thrilled to have a motorized route travel down my street yet I believe that we can work together to solve some of the problems it creates. Inyo County is likely bearing some of the cost of implementing the AD, our tax dollars.

      So, here is a different twist to the same situation. BTW it is now illegal for OHV to travel on county roads. Should we make threats to those illegal riders as you and yours seem to enjoy doing when you don’t agree with someone?

      Lastly, when are you all going to post your actual names? I know Russ Monroe did and I respect the cogent way he presented his point of view.

    • For the Record June 27, 2012 at 9:45 pm #

      Mr. Truth Seeker – you have just demonstrated that you have been asleep for the past few years. Your ignorance of the Travel Management process is astounding and actually frightening.
      Or perhaps misinformation is your tactic?

      • Truth Seeker June 29, 2012 at 5:50 pm #

        What part did I get wrong? The Travel Management Plan is in fact a Road Closure Plan. The 600K grant that FOI applied for and received at the behest of the USFS was to close roads. Nothing else. The outcome was predestined by the USFS and anybody who attended the meetings and actually thought that they would have a say that mattered was and is a sucker.

  9. salblaster June 26, 2012 at 9:06 pm #

    the pro greenies sure can spin it. sure they had open meetings for ” public input” but a majority of people just dont go for any number of reasons and these conservation groups know this and use it to their advantage instead of finding a way to get real data from the people in the county. with a 600,000.00 grant i think they could send out surveys or even put something on the election ballots. as for myself i’ve been to a couple of proposed road plan meetings over the years. one was to view a map of proposed ”cherry steming” of roads in inyo and mono co. cherry steming is a term used when a road such as mazurka rd out of independence which ends up on top of wacoba mt would leave the main road open but close all branch’s that turn off the main road leaving a single line on a map, a cherry stem. so i go to the visitors center in lone pine to look at the maps and there are at least 20 seperate maps about 5 ft by 5 ft of very poor quality almost unreadable, and a desk about 4 ft by 4 feet to look at them on. i kid you not. i have a inyo forest map from about 20 years ago it shows just about every dirt road in the county and over the years with each new updated map more and more roads are disapearing from it, so i guess if its not on a map it does not exist. and are you kidding me friends of the inyo is funded from the registration fees of off road vehicles thats a lot of taxation without representation. for the its not your land or my land its ”our” land statement i know its not my land. its public land for use by all , not just a select group, stop acting like you know whats best, nobody likes being told what to do and where to do it. just want to ride, life, liberty and the pursuit of happyness or something like that.

  10. Miner49er June 26, 2012 at 11:21 pm #

    Here is a trick that will screw up the Forest Service and Inyo GreenPeace commies but good.

    File a Mining Claim for $100 bucks a year at various locations in areas you want to access. It is illegal for the BLM or Forest Service to block your access to ANY mining claim. It is law from the Mining Act of 1872 and it is still in full force and effect.

    The BLM tried to close roads around Randsburg but had to stop when the miners in the acres who had mining claims they could no longer legally access started to fight back.

    The bureaucrats work for us and when we fight back in force we will get the changes we want.

    The Mazourka canyon road closures are a great example. Almost the entire canyon has active mining claims. I believe the Mining Act is very clear in that “no government agency shall block access to mining claims”.

    If you want to learn more about mining claims Google it or read up about it on the BLM website. It is easy to do. And of course all your friends can come help you on your claim (they might need to ride their dirt bikes to the claim 🙂 ).

    The public meetings are a joke. The public is NOT well informed about their times, places, or agendas.

  11. Big AL June 27, 2012 at 12:19 am #

    I think .. there should be an audit … as to where exactly all of the $600,00.00 went in all of this?

    I’m sure some of it could be accounted for, for some of the really nice camp outs FOI members went on … camping at locations that they closed access to.

    I’m sure, that there must have been camping equipment bought for these camp out … tools such as chain saws bought to cut trees, maybe even powered post hole diggers to dig holes to set closure barriers in the ground. Or lumber and hardware to fashion barriers.

    I remember being in Coyote basin last deer hunting season, and seeing FOI people camped out at the lake .. a big camp, pretty impressive .. I’m sure OHV dollars paid for that excursion .. oh but they were doing work on closures and repairing trails.

    The day before opening day, they were harassing deer to get them moving and all nervous for opening day. I even talked to a hunter who was harassed by some of the members opening day.

    So Mr. Prather it is hard to read your words of the wholesome group you have, and that all of the members are as you describe. I am not pinning anything I say on the group as a whole, I believe there are some who really feel they are doing right and who try to do right, but there are those who are not.

    It’s pretty twisted that money paid from OHV dollars is granted for use to close roads, but that is the way things seem to work now days … twisted.

    So Let’s see some accounting of grant money, see if this is in fact .. really on the up and up?

    • Benett Kessler June 27, 2012 at 9:56 am #

      Big Al,
      I understand your request for accountability of funds, but much of what you have written is total speculation. You have no evidence of what FOI did or didn’t do with the grant money. Why not just pose questions instead of making assumptions.

      • Sydney Quinn June 27, 2012 at 1:54 pm #

        I suggest you not post comments not “signed” with the persons full and true name!

        • Jason Deckard June 27, 2012 at 8:22 pm #

          Sydney, in case your new here, Benett hasn’t a clue how to effectively administer a public forum like this. It’s basically hands-off, unless someone is slamming her reporting.

          Note to Ms Kessler: take the time to actually set some ground rules and take control of this site — it’s sinking into the depths, and it’s an embarrassment to journalism.

      • Tourbillon June 27, 2012 at 9:02 pm #

        In the absence of incisive reporting, assumptions will be made.

      • Rob June 28, 2012 at 7:28 am #

        I don’t see why benett is so sensitive on this issue. Make me wonder her relationship with FOI.

        Discovering the truth often starts with a little speculation. .

        • Benett Kessler June 28, 2012 at 9:59 am #

          Rob, Not sure what you mean about “sensitive”. No more sensitivity here than on any other high profile
          public issue.

    • hisierragal June 27, 2012 at 2:43 pm #

      “The day before opening day, they were harassing deer to get them moving and all nervous for opening day. I even talked to a hunter who was harassed by some of the members opening day.
      who is “they” and what kind of proof do you have for your allegations because early in your letter, the allegation that FOI is spending money on fancy camping gear, I know to be total BS so the rest of your tale of woe is also suspect

      • Big AL June 27, 2012 at 8:47 pm #

        I saw them camping at Coyote lake, no idea how long before season opener, that they were there, but they were there the morning of the opener.

        What I saw I know for fact. Now if you want to say I did not see what I saw hisierragrl, well that is just fine with me ..
        I saw them harassing deer, but .. let me clarify a point here, I saw some people who I know were FOI people, that I saw who were camped in the camp at Coyote lake, some of these people were harrasing some deer that were in the vicinity of the lake.
        This was a small group of deer, a little spiked buck and about 8 does. I know what I saw .. do you know what I saw or did not see, were you there as well?

        What I was told by the fellow hunter about him being harassed by FOI members, well, that you can say is hear say, I will give you that, I could see he was pretty upset about it, and that he said, “I think the Forest Service should know what they are doing”.

        OK so for the other allegations:

        -I’m sure, that there must have been camping equipment bought for these camp out … tools such as chain saws bought to cut trees, maybe even powered post hole diggers to dig holes to set closure barriers in the ground. Or lumber and hardware to fashion barriers.-

        Yes this could be construed as speculation, but it was more of a question posed by me, about what they do with the money? I don’t think speculating on what they purchased is out of the question or Bovine Scattology. As I said, I would like to see what they are spending it on.

        As I said the camp was pretty impressive, I did not say, it was outlandish, but for a group that cares about not leaving an impressive foot print, they were walking pretty heavy.

        So there is the total BS woe for you to respond too.

        Is that better Benett? I put my speculation to question … how is the money being spent, and if there is equipment bought, is it necessary for the mission at hand or is it no essential?

        Are there paid administrators, does the money in the grant pay for fuel and food for participants? I feel questions such as this are legitimate.

        • hisierragal June 28, 2012 at 7:56 am #

          Hey Big Al, How about you learn yourself a little grant writing instead of “speculating” in a libelous manner?

          Administrators – usually already a part of an organization, being paid

          food and fuel for participants – I have worked on more than one grant funded project – received a “stipend” – not even minimum wage

          other camping gear – FOI does a lot of service projects, trail work etc, on some trips the participants pay a fee – yes, FOI has the equipment to feed the folks who work all day, these folks, I believe, have to have their own camping gear

          from what I know about grants particular tools needed for the work can be written into the proposal – you seem to want to insist on some kind of impropriety when the fact is that you know so little yet are willing to slander others just because you can’t ride your toy everywhere you want to

          so another question for Big Al – you use the word “harassment” – care to describe? I mean – for some people saying “hi” might feel like harassment, and just how were they “harassing” the deer?

          I am still not convinced that you have any substance, just a lot of “victim” looking for a boogyman and a lynch mob to join

          • Big AL June 30, 2012 at 2:06 pm #

            well ya learned me some on that there grant writing and all thank you very much .. You are right I did not know a whole lot about it, but you enlightened me, and that is what I was asking. It wasn’t speculating in a libelous manner .. I was asking questions

            LOL .. As far as wanting to ride my toy where ever I want .. no I don’t, I know there are areas I can not ride, and I don’t. You probably think I am one of the 10 percenters that screw it up for us all, even you.

            As far as the harrassment thing I heard of, from I remember the person who related it to me said that he came upon a group of people working on a restoration project of some sort, i can not remember what, but they made the comment … or someone in the group, made the comment about him being a hunter, something about he should be ashamed of doing that .. killing deer ..

            I do remember that part, seemed like they made a comment about they were not doing their work for hunters and off roaders. But if you choose to treat that part like speculation go right ahead, because I can not recall it for sure. As I said before in reply to your question, that is only here say to me, so treat it as you like.

            As far as what I saw, I stopped to glass the deer that I had mentioned in the harrassment case. They were up in the pine trees on the north side of the ridge leading east up to Coyote lake. I had seen some deer in there before, and I knew that there was most likely no buck I wanted to take in that bunch, they were just up the hill in the trees.

            I was just sitting there glassing them. I guess this group of people, maybe 3 or 4? .. saw me watching them, thought I was going to shoot them (Speculation here). They started shouting at the deer and throwing there arms up making them move out.

            I just sat there amazed at it, the buck in the bunch was a little spike, I wasn’t going to shoot them .. just watching them and taking a break. I could not believe it, I thought what a bunch of dumb xsses, it just disgusted me, so I moved on. I mean I understand their compassion for the animals, but they didn’t respect my thoughts or gave me the benefit of knowing I wouldn’t shoot those deer.

            I couldn’t any ways .. I was on a road, you can’t shoot from the road, and besides, I knew there were campers in the campsites.

            That is my story to give you substance for your speculation. You can choose to think what you may, at this point I really don’t care now, this is what I saw.

    • Mike Prather, Lone Pine June 27, 2012 at 2:57 pm #

      The legislation that created the OHV program requires that a certain percentage of the grant funds go for conservation/protection/repair purposes. Please check the enabling legislation for the exact %. It’s in the interest of all of us to ride responsibly, to have access not excess. The vast majority of rider don’t pit machine vs. nature.

      Thank you for not engaging in personal attacks or threats to people that I care very much about. The grant is online (someone here posted the link). Full reporting is required under law. If a group is found dishonest then they would never be funded again I assure you.

      • Big AL June 27, 2012 at 9:05 pm #

        Thank you Mike for that post ,, as I said .. I don’t mean to attack anyone that is doing right, I know there are those who care, but there are those who pretend to care and use situations such as this to further their own agendas. This happens on both sides of any issue. That is what I challenge.

        I just can not see where there is excess, that is causing the problem. I do see though, that access seems to be a problem. A problem with certain people, who feel that they can just limit access, for what ever reason they have.

        These roads have existed for some time, and there is no problem with their existence. The problem is in how .. as you elude too … that there are a certain number of people who are causing problems.

        As another poster posted … Let’s focus on the problem, in problem areas, such as sensitive areas, or trails or roads, that need work, to keep them from causing problems. closing access to illegal newly blazed roads. This is what the grant funds go for, as in your words. Conservation, protection, and repair purposes, not road closures of existing established roads.

  12. Limbaughism strikes again June 27, 2012 at 5:41 am #

    The power of conservative guru Rush Limbaugh knows no limits and his influence has found its way onto this format.
    The obese, OxyContin-inspired talk-radio champion hates the environmentalists aka “greenies” aka “environmental wackos” almost as much as he hates “liberals” (aka Democrats).
    And when hardpressed, his loyal, angst-ridden legions will tell you, “Nobody listens to Rush.”
    Keep the hatred flowing Limbaughites. You people are being exposed daily for the grizzled, dangerous, tea-party, and anti-authority freaks that you are. And at a time when we should be pulling together more than ever on matters environmental.

    • Tourbillon June 27, 2012 at 9:10 pm #

      Can’t speak for others, but you certainly won me over with the your reasoned nuanced argument which explained that I may be a “loyal, angst-ridden legion” who “keeps the hatred flowing” and am a “grizzled, dangerous, tea-party, and anti-authority freak”. Dude, you totally won me over with your objective and unassailable logic.

      • Limbaughism strikes again June 28, 2012 at 5:34 am #

        Note how Tourbillon never mentions the source of the hatred in America today –
        Limbaughism (nobody ever listens to Limbaugh, right?)
        He begs to be “won over.”
        Nobody ever said the tea party people were a secure and peace-loving lot.
        Don’t you wish these fanatics would find a hungry family to feed or something? A lot of people need help.
        Instead, these poor souls think they are accomplishing something with this sort of behavior –

        • Not a Left/Right debate June 28, 2012 at 3:58 pm #

          Limbaughism is so passe. Why are you so concerned about a drooling tool like him? From what you have posted it sounds like you actually listen to him. I am a self confessed “greenie” / liberal that is awake to the corruption going on with the green movement. I find it quit hilarious how you are accusing everybody who is against the travel management program a limbagh fan….The right left paradigm is not an issue here.

          • Conservatism/Limbaugh June 28, 2012 at 7:50 pm #

            The right/left paradigm certainly is an issue …
            in every facet of America today.

          • Jenny B July 1, 2012 at 1:20 am #

            The far left is just as corrupt as the far right. Both can do just as much harm. The anti rightest campaign resulted in millions of deaths under the Mao regime. Both sides can be brainwashed and played off on each other. It is ok to fight for your constitutional rights even if your favourite team may disagree.

            Labelling people who are questioning authority as “Limbaugh” supporters is pretty childish and ignorant. You should go spend some time in north vietnam.

      • A happy American June 28, 2012 at 9:43 am #


        Don’t you have a tea party meeting to go to?

    • SierraFan June 28, 2012 at 10:10 am #

      Limbaughism strikes again,

      And so has Al Sharpton!

      • A Happy American June 28, 2012 at 11:12 am #

        Are you saying Al Sharpton has a following that listens to polarization 3 hours a day, 5 days a week, and reruns on weekends?
        Please think before you post, SierraFan.
        You are sounding like Limbaugh.
        (psst) (in a whisper) Don’t anyone tell SierraFan what just happened in the Supreme Court today.
        It might turn him into a raving lunatic.

        • SierraFan June 29, 2012 at 10:50 am #

          A Happy American,

          Are you sure? Happy?? My post was to our Limbaugh hating friend! He’s a hater for anything right and seems to demonize the same. Most of us are actually “Happy American’s” here as a whole but he likes to place all conservatives as Rush followers which is certainly not the case. He’s pretty much and like you too far left. If you’re that far left, maybe think about moving to Europe where left is popular and then you may truly be “Happy”.

  13. Numbers June 27, 2012 at 7:09 am #

    I read through the 200 or so public comments documented in the EIR, it looks to me that nearly every public comment on record was against any road closures. Seems the OHV advocates did participate and make their voices heard, but the USFS ignored them.

    • Big AL June 27, 2012 at 9:06 pm #

      You’re right Numbers.

      • SierraFan June 28, 2012 at 10:19 am #

        You know Big Al and others against these closure as I am, we are all focused on being heard at the many meetings but we have to remember that there isn’t anything written that says they have to listen or do as we ask. We’re so focussed on the process that we forget where the money comes from and who is really in charge, the bureaucrats!

        The FOI do a fantastic job and it’s very much appreciated that they take on certain responsibilities but we have to remember who controls them whether they believe it or not.

        • Big AL June 28, 2012 at 5:51 pm #

          You’re right SierraFan.

        • Truth Seeker June 29, 2012 at 5:56 pm #

          Al Capone was loved in the streets of Chicago for opening up soup kitchens. The volunteer good deeds done by FOI in the back country does not overcome the $600,000.00 they are being paid to close roads that their friends and neighbors use in the front country. It is despicable mercenary work.

    • Rob June 28, 2012 at 10:44 am #

      Why hasn’t MMMC or anyone else filed a lawsuit? If the comments were overwhelmingly against closures and those comments were ignored, that is a solid basis for an effective lawsuit. Stop letting the local greenies win, go to a judge.

    • Truth Seeker June 29, 2012 at 8:14 pm #

      Numbers; There you go confusing the USFS and FOI with the actual facts!

      It was a rigged game from the start. The meetings were political theater to make locals think they had a say and a cover so they say to people that they should have showed up for the meetings when they did not like the pre-designated outcome. This was all about closing roads from the start and they threw out a few small bones so that people like Susan Cash actually think they did something.

  14. Friend Of The Inyo June 27, 2012 at 7:22 am #

    Here’s one vote for responsible Off-Highway Vehicle use on OUR public lands. Guess that ought to include fuel-efficiency and emissions standards, noise-level certifications and operator age restrictions, responsible guidelines that the rest of us obey on our public highway system.

  15. Ken Warner June 27, 2012 at 7:40 am #

    It’s not an easy problem.

    OHV of any kind do degrade the environment even when using old, established roads. They disturb wildlife, destroy plants, create erosion, pollute.

    The Owens Valley and Easter Sierra do depend on hoards of tourists to sustain the local economy. All those people come up here to see the back country.

    Most of them are too fat and out of shape to walk those roads or have it fixed in their minds that driving something fast through a beautiful wilderness is fun.

    There isn’t going to be a this way or that way solution. There’s going to have to be a middling compromise. What that compromise is I don’t know.

    There is not going to be a solution that is satisfactory for everybody all the time.

    Welcome to an over populated planet.

    • Democrats against corrupt NGOs June 27, 2012 at 3:55 pm #

      Ken, in the eyes of the friends of Inyo, you are a carbon producing human who disturbs wildlife, destroy plants, create erosion, pollute exept the people who run these NGOs and foundations. As the economy collapses and gas prices rise. Less and less people will be driving on these roads. You and the rest of us should pack up an go to the city or just kill our selves and let them be ‘stewards of the enviornment”

  16. The green queen June 27, 2012 at 8:41 am #

    I drive over 300 miles to come to this community over 10 times a year for 10 years. Every time I come up more and more roads are closed to riding my bike, hiking or running/walking your trails!!!!! What is going on up there. I am getting the Impression you don’t want people to visit your community. I don’t know how such a beautiful community can be such a green unfriendly place to visit. I guess you don’t like people to be healthy or Enjoy nature to it’s fullest. You probably prefer pictures of nature as a posed to being a part of it. What a shame you have allowed elected officials to disrespect such a beautiful piece of this plant. I will start looking for some other place to admire and enjoy. Shame on you.

    • Wayne Deja June 27, 2012 at 10:48 am #

      green queen…..There are NO closures as far as walking,hiking,or riding a mountain bike….all that is allowed on ALL public land..closures are meant for motorized vehicles…Sometimes,people try to “spin” it that way…making it look like the Government is “not allowing” people on public land…that’s NOT the way it really is…As far as the closure at the Tulttle Creek area that Mr.Monroe has spoken about,I,along with most feel that is the wrong thing to do.But there are areas that should be closed to motorized vehicles..what Dave Underwood says is true about many of the off-road users…they get to an area on a road…and then they tear everything up around the area….leaving trash,destroying the landscape,etc.Maybe that is what the USFS is trying to prevent happening so much.

      • Mammoth Motorcycle Club June 27, 2012 at 11:41 am #

        Wayne, enjoy the following article on closed camping areas as a direct result of TM. Notice the pictures in the article – are non-motorized users really being considered? It might come as a surprise to you, some motorized users actually do other activities as well. These are “all inclusive.”

        Here’s one on mtn bike trails that have been wantonly swept aside – all in the name of “motorized management.” Of course, it’s “allowed,” but is it actually…. “suitable?”

        Your theory isn’t really based on what’s happening on the ground (reality)… nice try though.
        But you’re right, some OHV users forget their brains at home – no doubt about that. On the flip side, non- OHV users do as well.

        Your point exactly?

        • Big AL June 27, 2012 at 9:16 pm #

          good Post MMMC

      • Blaze Whitney June 27, 2012 at 12:59 pm #

        “they get to an area on a road…and then they tear everything up around the area…” this is exactly what FOI did where they placed the barricades Mr. Monroe was speaking of. I am assuming it was FOI who cut living sage brush and dug up live plants to use as vertical mulch. Talk about a scar on the landscape. Also I couldn’t help but notice that further up the road to the Ashram someone had tossed a USFS engineering barricade that had road closed sign on it, in the brush. Is this road truly closed or about to be closed also?

      • Big AL June 27, 2012 at 9:15 pm #

        Wayne .. you better read up on the definition of bikes as to whether or not they are considered natural or mechanical. They are motorized in the eyes of the government and greenies.

    • Inyoite June 27, 2012 at 6:24 pm #

      Elected officials? Since when is the Forest Service (or FOI, for that matter) elected?

    • Big AL June 27, 2012 at 9:13 pm #

      Well GQ .. it’s their agenda .. they hold all of the cards .. when they shove it down other people’s throats, it’s amazing, that with all of the people you talk to around here, and a fair amount of those who come to visit .. are not for these closures, yet how is it, we are a minority?

      When you hold the ballot box, you can do what you want.

  17. johnjcampnfish June 27, 2012 at 8:46 am #

    I’m assuming that FOI is an organization that can’t discriminate against anyone who wants to join them. The posters here and all of their friends and people who think like them should just join this organization and change how it spends its grant money. A fifth column voting block of off-road enthusiasts and others that pay the green sticker fees ought to have a say in how it is spent.

    • Big AL June 27, 2012 at 9:19 pm #

      Yes John, some of that going on here .. we just need to get it out where the rubber meets the gravel. hehe

  18. David Underwood June 27, 2012 at 8:54 am #

    The OHV users will drive on and over anything they can find until it is nothing but trails of ruts. Those complaining here seem to ignore that this is public land, and that does not mean just those living in the Owens Valley. It also includes the users from another areas who will drive hundreds of miles just to see how many meadows they can drive through, how many hills they can denude, and how much noise they can make.

    There are more than enough ORV roads and trails for everyone. These lands belong to all the people not just the motorheads. The constant destruction of these lands must cease, we have lost millions of acres of these lands to those who would continue to destroy them until they are all gone.

    I suspect much of the anger about these closures are organized by the dealers in ORV vehicles and their associated support vehicles. It is time they realized a great many of us also have the right to go to the hills and enjoy the peace and quiet, and just be able to relax without the dust, the noise, the trash, and the presence of those who will not respect that right.

    The USFS has given the citizens more than enough time and meeting for public input. It is interesting that several have complained about the days and times of the meetings. They can not take off from work to attend, but they can afford to buy these expensive ORVs, the vehicles to transport them, the gas to run them, and yet can not find the time to present their views.

    • Mammoth Motorcycle Club June 27, 2012 at 10:00 am #

      David Underwood,
      Lots of sweeping generalizations there… But that’s ok. You’ve got a wonderful imagination too – I can appreciate it.

      I think we all know that there was lots of “public input,” that’s undeniable. We also know that the FS used public input to make some good decisions (also undeniable).

      It wasn’t all bad – I realize that.

      Unfortunately, what you don’t understand, and where the process failed was towards the end…. As more and more valuable (and equally important) information came in, it was altogether thrown out – In favor of meeting the all-important “deadline mandated by the president,” or something like that. At one of the later meetings, people were so pissed off about this, that they stormed out of the building, saying things like “I’m going to rip those barricades out!” along with other things. All that Mr. Bone Head (Upchurch) could do was sit there and listen… FAIL!

      Speaking of Upchurch, where is he now-a-days??? Came on in to our town, told us what he planned to do with our roads, and left….like the wind. Didn’t even bother to stay and see his marvelous plan through… huh.

      The fundamental problem with the whole “public input process” was that it was rushed – plain and simple. I don’t care how long it took, it should’ve taken LONGER! Twice as long if need be. The implementation process should have taken longer as well. FOI hired a bunch of kids to pound signs, etc. – with no care really in how it was done. I’m sure they were happy enough just to be getting a paycheck at the end of the week (not blaming them at all). I think FOII should’ve had was come critical thinking individuals (off-roaders perhaps?), out there with the working groups too. You know, people that might ask questions if something didn’t feel right, etc.

      The implementation process should’ve included more public participation as well (we were actually promised this)! It’s great that the FOI were under “direct supervision” from the FS, but they should’ve been under the watchful eye of us as well (users who are directly effected). Something as simple as posting up detailed pictures and locations of every closure on their website would be a start! Why hide it?

      Even though this all sounds bad (because it is), I’m happy to hear that the Marty and Paul from FOI, are willing to re-visit some of the mistakes and reverse them. This would be the responsible thing to do, and I look forward to working with them.

      • Big AL June 27, 2012 at 9:29 pm #

        MMMC .. I think, that if they are going to let out a project of this sort, they need to have the whole end users involved in the work, I’m glad to have heard that in your post, not just one group.

        This could happen, I feel representatives of all facets of end users could work together, it is usually those who want to make a difference, who come out to do the work, and also the ones who care the most for conservation, whether you walk or ride.

    • Greg Weirick June 27, 2012 at 10:29 am #

      There are more than enough ORV roads and trails for everyone. These lands belong to all the people not just the motorheads. The constant destruction of these lands must cease, we have lost millions of acres of these lands to those who would continue to destroy them until they are all gone.

      It is precisely over the top, patently untrue statements such as this that takes all credibilty away from the Green Industry, yet they continue. How about some facts, sir!

      I attended every meeting, we were railroaded then and being railroaded now. The agenda driven effort by the Forest was very well orchestrated to achieve their desired end and now they don’t understand why everyone is so upset. Their token outreach to the public was pathetic, given the millions of visitors who visit here and never heard a thing. When asked about that at the very beginning, Nancy Upham, Forest PIO said, “we’re doing the best we can” and ignored repeated requests to do a better job!

      Eastern Sierra locals submitted comments on every one of the approximately 6,000 roads in this Forest claiming the importance of every one and all but 400 were refused. This because they weren’t “substantive”, meaning we weren’t able to use as many big words as the Forests scientist do to justify all the closures. We were told early on in the proceedings that if no comment was received for every road, that it would likely be closed and then they refuse our comments?

      Regarding the supervision of the Friends of the Inyo by the Forest. Forest reps were to accompany every work team in the field and they are not doing so. As a result there have been numerous reports of forest visitors being treated rudely by the Fiends of the Inyo crews.
      On the eve of deer season up on Coyote, they purposely walked thru a known migration corridor to drive deer out of there. While hunters who were scouting for the next morning watched, a green truck sped up to them and the FOI employee told them “we have people up there and you better not shoot them”!

      • Big AL June 27, 2012 at 9:37 pm #

        Greg, I personally commented on some of these closures, I know you did, and I know of several .. several locals who commented on closures. So how is it, that the Forest Service can tell us we did not comment … no sympathy … sorry ..

        It is because, as a lot of people are saying as well .. we were all ignored in order to expedite implementation of the plan.

      • For the Record June 27, 2012 at 10:05 pm #

        Greg, it is hard to believe that you signed the Travel Management Plan document based on your comments above. But YOU did!

        • Big AL June 29, 2012 at 5:08 pm #

          For the record, what choice did we/they have? If open access folks did not sign it, it only left it open for future changes to be made. If no signatures were made, closed access proponents could say .. well there is no evidence of opposition to the plane, it must be clearly viewed that it is OK to close roads in the future.

      • Paul McFarland June 28, 2012 at 10:49 am #

        Hey there Greg and other posters – My crews have treated no one rudely.
        This really isn’t getting anyone anywhere.
        Threats to my crews and others should be tolerated by no one who believes in democracy. If you can’t speak or work without threats then democracy can’t work. We can disagree but there is no excuse for being purposefully and anonymously disagreeable. Thanks to the people on here with the courage to speak their mind while backing it up with their real name.
        Greg is right on – There is room enough for all of us out there – no matter how you get outside, we’re going out for the same reason: because we love where we live, explore, work and play.
        Complaining and threatening isn’t work. Crafting and implementing real compromise that protects why we love this place is.
        If there are specific places you are concerned about – like the anonymous person talking about the bachar boulders (I heard the campsite was left open by the FS crew that implemented that…) – those are things that can and should be addressed. Photos like Russ Monroe’s can make a real difference to make the FS road system work. Bashing good people and sowing misinformation wastes time and tears our community apart at a time when we need to be coming together to figure out how to make our public lands work.
        Those of you who would bash folks like Greg for actually participating are really missing the mark. He and others worked hard in good faith. Nobody got all they wanted, but we did get a system of over 2700 miles of road and no money wasted on lawsuits. Hundreds of those miles, roads to real places like Sentinel Meadow, Crystal Ridge and Papoose Flat wouldn’t be open today if it weren’t for public participation.
        I am out on the ground in the Jeffrey Pines, Pinyon Pines and/or sagebrush nearly every day and am happy to talk and work with anyone to make our public lands work.

        Thanks and go outside,
        Paul McFarland
        Friends of the Inyo

        • Truth Seeker June 28, 2012 at 2:23 pm #

          Mr. McFarland, how much are you personally being paid to close roads? How much is a typical crew member being paid? What percentage of the crew are FOI members? Where was the job announcement posted?

          • For the Record June 28, 2012 at 4:40 pm #

            Mr. Truth Seeker, your questions are a distraction from the subject being discussed. They are irrelevant. I feel sorry for someone with a personal vendetta.

          • Rob June 29, 2012 at 6:53 am #

            McFarland’s pay is a fair question. If they’re out there blocking roads on their own time they would obviously feel very strong about what they are doing, and I think they do.

            If they’re paying themselves I’d bet they’re taking advantage of the oppertunity. .

            So tell us where the money went.

          • Big AL June 29, 2012 at 5:13 pm #

            I agree a swell .. it is a relevant question for the record. For the record, we would like to know, I think we have a right to know.

            I think, that people in a position in an organization such as Friend of the Inyo, should not receive pay for their work, they are a voluntary organization.

            Just how I see it, aside from the subject being discussed and all.

        • Big AL June 28, 2012 at 5:57 pm #

          Thank you for that post Paul.

        • Rob June 29, 2012 at 11:47 am #


          Thanks for your post. Unfortunately, you don’t know what your crews are doing unless you are with them. The many photographs documenting the covered trails, misdirected arrows, and the personal testimony of more than a few people regarding the treatment they received from people who they thought were FOU staff is far more compelling than your well-intentioned statements.

          What is being lost here is the importance of the use by the average person in a car or pick-up, not the intensive use by a motorcycle. Where is the consideration for us?

          Thanks again.

          • Big AL June 29, 2012 at 5:25 pm #

            Yes I agree Rob. What is being lost is choice for those of us who use the forest with care, because some idiots don’t know how to act.

            And, road closures were not done in a responsible manner in some cases.

    • Fed up at FOI June 27, 2012 at 9:25 pm #

      Let me tell you I am not a dealer. I have a 4wd. I visit the back-country roads on occasion. I tread lightly. My 4WD goes slow but get’s there . It is really disgusting to find that roads I used to travel are closed for not GOOD reason.
      I am also upset that the OHV community has not formed large groups of concerned people. That is why we are in this situation. I wanted to be involved I gave my name but none of your organizations seemed to want me to participate. I felt un-welcome.

      Now the other thing is that the FS , Legislature , and FOI purposly used the words ” OHV road restoration” when those groups knew thew were speaking about closing of OHV roads and restoration of lands to natural condition. It is unfortunate now that because of some deceptive acts of others we now have closed roads.
      I hope you folks get it together and do something.

  19. Tim June 27, 2012 at 1:07 pm #

    Hey Look, The FOI is seeking an new Executive Director. Any one intrested?

    Please submit a cover letter, resume, professional writing sample (grant proposal or report, newsletter, website, etc.) and contact information for at least three professional references as .pdf documents to the Friends of the Inyo Executive Search Committee at Applications will be accepted through June 29, 2012.

    You have only two day’s left to Apply!!!!!

  20. Blaze Whitney June 27, 2012 at 8:12 pm #

    The Forest Service does what it wants to do. Remember the Whitney Trail toilet decision, look at that and the public comments. The public lost that one also.

  21. Friends of grant money June 27, 2012 at 8:20 pm #

    Bachar Boulder road closure
    Each year my wife and children and I make many trips to the eastern sierras with my family to climb. ‘Bachar Boulders’ is one of our favorite spots to go bouldering after a cool swim at June lake. I park my car in the shady areas where my children can play while my wife and I take turns climbing.
    Bachar Boulders is a world class bouldering spot named after an amazing mammoth local who as passed away. The climbing community in the sierras and internationally should be appalled by the actions of the Friends of Inyo and the forest service for closing so many access roads. They must have made a good over head by having a bunch of kids throw sticks and logs in the way to block them off. What will they think of next to get another grant?…close campgrounds? close the gorge? lots of great projects.
    I will be sure to spread this word to as many climbers as possible. Friends of Inyo are really friends of the grant money not the public! How about andit of their funds and expenses?

    • hisierragal June 28, 2012 at 8:10 am #

      the same ol’, same ol’ – I can’t drive or park my motor vehicle where I want to so I am going to go out and tear up the barricades and carry a gun and slander and threaten people

      to quote Mick Jagger: “You can’t always get what you want”

      nobody does

      • Big AL June 28, 2012 at 6:21 pm #

        Nice post hisieragrl … way to be generalizing in your way of thinking. But you never answered my question, were you there opening day of deer season last year to see what I saw?

        I love how your comments like this one shows a lot of hate and contempt on a general basis, in your words, it seems, everyone who uses motor vehicles is some sort of outlaw or second class citizen because they don’t see things as you do, or are against this management plan because they don’t think it is right.
        Just saying

        There are some who behave very bad as you say, yes, there are some in all groups, just as I saw, as I stated.

        I have been seeing some good posts from your side of this issue, I give those people way more credibility than I do you. I will say, you have compassion for what you feel and or believe,

    • Margy Verba June 28, 2012 at 11:08 am #

      That’s funny…one of my neighbors went climbing at the Bachar Boulders yesterday. I asked him how he got there, as it was my understanding from this forum that the road had been closed. He replied: “there are lots of ways to get there.” Therein lies part of the problem…lots of redundant roads.

      • Rob June 28, 2012 at 12:57 pm #

        So if everyone going to Bachar has to take the same route I’d expect that route to have errosion problems due to the traffic. It’s actually a good thing there’s multiple routes to the same destination.

        Boycott the business that support FOI, start with the ones mentioned on their website.

      • John Barton June 28, 2012 at 1:51 pm #

        Margy- Yes, redundant new roads should be closed. Roads that went through wet meadows should be closed or re-routed. Roads that have been known to exist for decades should NOT have been closed. This is the crux of the problem.

        • Rob June 29, 2012 at 12:23 pm #

          Not all redundant roads should be closed.
          Having redundant roads allows for a 2nd way out in the event of brush fire. If that’s not the case it’s time to close either 203 or the scenic loop.

          • Big AL June 29, 2012 at 4:13 pm #

            That is a good point Rob, some redundent roads offer escape routs for certain situations, some others, might have something different to see.

  22. SierraFan June 28, 2012 at 10:41 am #


    I’m thinking we should convert your Prius into a 4wd so you can experience what many here are talking about. What’s basically being said is that FOI and the FS should have taken more time and done a better job of explaining the reasons for the closures if even one road or quadrant at a time. I’m sure that there are roads that should be closed for a time due to over use but then reopened later predetermined time. Maybe there could have been more thought into this whole thing but you may never know due to your apparent lack of 4×4 experience.

  23. Margy Verba June 28, 2012 at 11:22 am #

    I am confused as to why the anger is directed at FOI and the FS??? The motorized community was well-represented in the CAT negotiations, which generated the proposal used by the FS to determine which roads/routes are part of the system. To name a few of the motorized community participants who signed the agreement: beloved Supervisors Linda Arcularius and Susan Cash; Greg Weirick (although he now states he was a pawn???); Dick Noles; Bill Sauser…just to name a few.

    My husband and I own a high-clearance vehicle because we enjoy finding beautiful places to hike and camp in the INF. I remember a time not too long a go, when navigating was easy. Now, we have to stop every 5 minutes to determine which of the multiple branches in front of us is the real road, hoping we pick the correct one, so we don’t have to do some awful backtrack. There are benefits to folks enjoying motorized recreation to having a well-signed, well-maintained, well-defined system of routes.

    I would also like to address not-so-veiled threats I have read in this and other TM forums on this site. In a democracy — and I believe part of being an American patriot is defending democracy — I shouldn’t feel any fear having an FOI bumper sticker on my car, and now I do. I honor your right to have different opinions and tastes in recreation. Democracy depends on folks being free to have different beliefs and opinions without feeling threatened for their beliefs. Democracy depends on fact-based civil discourse. No “side” in the CAT negotiations got everything they wanted…that’s the nature of compromise, also an important element of a functioning Democracy. There is only one form of government where one side gets everything they want; hint hint…it’s not a democracy.

    And yes, I am using my real name. And I wish the rest of you would too.

    • John Barton June 28, 2012 at 1:46 pm #

      Margy- First, it was not a democratic outcome. The forest Supervisor at the time decided what he thought was best for everyone else. Second, the maps at the end of the long period of so-called collaboration and input are very different than the current maps at the visitor center. Nobody can so far explain why the original maps cannot be redisplayed from the meetings to compare with the approved plan maps. This will show how democratic the process was or wasn’t present and would serve as a way to continue to bring both sides together to continue the evolution of this travel plan.

      • For the Record June 29, 2012 at 10:31 am #

        Mr. Barton, I can not speak to the maps. That is an issue on its own. But, your statement that it was not a democratic process because he “decided what he thought was best for everyone else” implies that since you didn’t get your way, you are going to call it “not democratic” and take your marbles and run. Welcome to democracy. Rarely do any of us get exactly what we want.

        Your statement about bringing both (although there are more than two) sides together is encouraging. Thank you. I wish others would express the same sentiment.

        • John Barton June 29, 2012 at 12:41 pm #

          If one reads the travel plan the forest supervisor comes right out and states “I have choosen Alternative 4”. To say this implies I didn’t “get my way” is too wide of a leap in logic. Understanding that compromise is a two way street, it would be appropriate for all sets of maps be brought out again and all the groups have a big pow wow and see if further progress can be made — for both sides. After people have some time to get outside and travel around I think it would be an appropriate time to meet and discuss their findings. Sometimes we can’t see the error in our ways without first trying something out and then come back and make improvements.

      • Margy Verba June 29, 2012 at 10:46 am #

        John, First, thanks so much for keeping the tone civil! I really appreciate that.
        Now as far as being a democratic outcome, I believe it was about as democratic an outcome as anyone could hope for working with a big bureaucracy. A diverse constituency — in which off-roaders were extremely well represented — offered a proposal to the FS, which the FS basically went with. So, I disagree that the Supervisor decided what was best…the Supervisor chose the alternative presented to him by the CAT team. As far as the discrepancy in the maps, I have not heard about that. I know there have been some corrections from the original maps — it is unimaginable, given the scope of the project, that no mistakes would be made. My understanding is that many of the corrections have benefited the off-road community. Again, really appreciate you tone…thanks for not threatening me for having a different perspective.

  24. Mammoth Motorcycle Club June 28, 2012 at 1:30 pm #

    If you’re honestly confused, I would suggest re-reading all the comments (start to finish). Doing this might offer you some understanding as to why people are “angry” with the FS and FOI.

    Some of the opinions do actually have value, do they not?

    • Really Fed up June 28, 2012 at 6:31 pm #

      MMC you just don’t get it. You club made no significant effort to get folks interested and understanding of your concerns. I remember when the Wilderness bill came through. The FOI and other groups were all prepared. On the other hand the 4wd and MC OHV users were all by themselves as individuals. I gave my name and email out to the OHV people and got nothing. Today we have the best resources the internet and it is free. why are you not doing mass emails and such. your website does not have much information.
      While you are out party and drinking the FOI are out closing roads.

      If you think something can be done let all of us know the time and place. Go to all the organizations and clubs in the area. It’s a lot of work. Accept from those that want to help. You can’t be to choosy.

      • Sahara Club June 29, 2012 at 1:48 pm #

        FOI is a invironmental extremist group.

        People break laws everyday, and they don’t get caught. .

        If we can’t prevent the barriers from being put up we’ll tear them down after they are installed. Count on it!

      • Big AL June 29, 2012 at 4:22 pm #

        Fed up .. I really like your post .. except for the comment about partying and drinking, that was wrong. I have been wrong with a few comments and I apologize for some things, but stand on others.

        You’re right, if we can get people together and get them involved, we can make a difference.

      • John C. July 1, 2012 at 5:56 pm #

        Hi Fed Up, our club is fairly new, sorry that you feel snubbed by OHV. I’m sure FOI and related groups were prepared for the wilderness bill. Local mountain biking was also prepared and got a few consolation prizes but ultimately lost out big time.

        Our beef is the closure of benign roads we’ve been using for decades. When travel management began we were all told that wouldn’t happen. Through the process it morphed and now this is what we have.

        FYI, we’ve even shared beers with FOI and USFS, roads get closed regardless. Becoming teetotalers wouldn’t have changed anything.

      • Mammoth M/C July 2, 2012 at 12:23 pm #

        Fed up,
        some good point there… Thanks for comment.

        especially about the drinking and partying!

        It’s not entirely my fault though, and I feel that some of our members should also be held accountable for this tool!
        These “members” (mostly mammoth lakes greasball types) show up to our monthly meetings… all in a good mood and stuff… laughing and carrying on (like a bunch of college kids!). Instead of good ideas, they bring their bad habits, bad breath, and dumb stories about having a good time (and other stuff)!… Thinking that we’re some kind of “social group!” or something. It drives me nuts! It’s literally an uphill battle to keep these guys on the straight and narrow. Sometimes they even call me when I’m on vacation – asking to borrow money or my bike!!!!! Can you believe it? I aint got time for that!

        I remember this one time… in Reno…

        I’m the first to admit, our website kinda sucks – No good info on there at all really. nothing but pictures and complaining about one thing or another. However, we do have our meeting dates/times/locations always posted up – you should swing by sometime and help me establish a little discipline and control with these guys!

        • Big AL July 2, 2012 at 2:44 pm #

          I hear ya MMC .. those 10 percenter types, and I don’t mean to harp on that … 10 percenter label, but man .. it is so true. It’s that sort of junk that has gotten us where we are in this issue.

          Paul McFarland made the comment that people on his organization have never treated anyone with disrespect, and I believe he truly believes that, and I truly believe, that for the the most part, that is true. But, there are always those in any ranks, that can be rude or condescending. It is just that way, people are people.

          I’m glad to see you show faults too, I think there are some here that don’t admit it, I know I am not perfect, none of us are. I have not handled my passion as well as I should in asking questions. But I give you an E for effort to try to make things right.

          I also am glad for some in the ranks of the pro management folks for their not throwing around junk in the face of adversity. Even on my part.

          Passions on both sides can flare and then no one gets anywhere. I’m not sure either side will see eye to eye as a whole, but hopefully there can be more understanding of how each feels about this issue.

    • Margy Verba June 29, 2012 at 11:01 am #

      MMC (whoever you are???), I have read all the comments. The part that I am confused about is, why isn’t the anger directed at the folks representing the off-road community in the CAT negotiations…the many off-road folks who signed the proposal which was adopted by the FS — see: page 22 for all the signatories (I listed several in my original comment). FOI and the FS didn’t unilaterally make decisions about road closures and additions to the system…believe me, had there not been negotiations and a compromise, but in fact, FOI got everything they wanted, the proposal would look really different. The proposal the FS adopted, is a big compromise…one in which all “sides” were well-represented. If you are unhappy with your “representation”, why are you not protesting to the folks who were supposed to represent you? As far as the work being done on the ground (basically, implementing the compromise the CAT team agreed to), FOI applied for, and was awarded an OHV grant. The grant application process is open to any organization to apply.

      • Rob June 29, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

        giving FOI and OHV grant is like giving the fox the keys to the hen house

        What next a grant from the cattlemens asc.

        I know FOI is passionately against cattle grazing on public land too.

      • Big AL June 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm #

        I don’t think we should redirect anger at any group or individuals Margy.

        These people who you are refering too really had n choice to sign, they pretty much had to sign it, to insure nothing could be changed at a later time. While they were not satisfied with it, they gave in to compromise.

        That is something a few folks posting here don’t see, and claim the OHV MMC, and Four wheel drive clubs and open access groups are not willing to compromise.

        There was a big compromise, your’re right. But i still maintain, that there were a lot of unnecessary closures just the same.

        And I don’t honestly think, that … if one of the other groups applied for the grant, that they would be successful in winning the bid, but that is just my take on it. But then why would the pro access folks want to close roads. Although, i think it would be a good opportunity to make some real good trail and road restoration.

  25. Susan Cash June 28, 2012 at 3:31 pm #

    I feel the need to clear up some misconceptions that are occurring around the subject of Travel Management, and how we find ourselves in the place we are today.

    Travel Management did not happen in a vacuum, and certainly didn’t happen in the dark. Well, to the extent that many many many meetings of the Collaborative Action Team occurred after regular business hours for the convenience of many of the participants who were working on it after working to support their families all day, I guess some of it literally did happen in the dark. Regardless, it is disingenuous to say that there was no opportunity for public input. Setting aside the many opportunities provided by the USFS to participate either in person or by written communication, the Inyo County Board of Supervisors additionally provided at least a dozen specific agenda items where the public was encouraged and welcome to submit comments to the county to incorporate into our own response – many people took advantage of that. The process wasn’t perfect, and it’s one of the reasons why the County continues to advocate for a stronger voice in future proceedings.

    In the end, the Collaborative Action Team, made up of people who represent a wide variety of interests in public lands as well as a few elected officials (myself included) submitted an alternative to Jim Upchurch to consider, which ultimately became the preferred alternative and was incorporated into the Record of Decision. It was not a perfect alternative no matter which side of the table you sat on. It was a collaborative compromise. We embraced the imperfect in order to meet deadlines that were set by Washington. Many of us learned lessons that will guide us in future “compromises”.

    Moving forward, I would encourage everyone to remember that this is a nation of laws. The Travel Management Plan, for better or for worse, is the law of the land and has been so since Mr. Upchurch signed it. I don’t like road closures any more than the next guy, but I dislike lawbreakers even more. If you don’t like the system, or the law ultimately created by the system, work to change one or the other or both. Don’t remove or disregard barriers. Even if you are doing it for the noblest of reasons in your heart and mind, you are now a lawbreaker – is that who you want to be? Hold your head up high, maintain your honesty and integrity, and continue to fight – legally – for what you believe in. I believe in this community and this county, and I have faith that the good people – the hardworking, honest people – that care about our forest and want those forests to continue to provide whatever it is that gives them enjoyment can rationally, legally, and methodically work out a way for that to happen. Don’t give up on yourselves so easily.

    Moving ahead, be aware that the Inyo Forest is getting ready to update its Forest Plan. It will be tedious, long, arduous work. It will involve people who care getting involved and deciding how the Inyo will be managed for the next 20 years or so. It will be groundbreaking work – our forest is one of the first in the nation to go through the process utilizing the new Forest Planning Rule. Get involved. It’s better to say you tried and failed than to not try at all. And who knows, you may actually get a chance to influence the Plan in a positive way.

    ~Susan Cash
    Inyo County Supervisor

    • Susan Cash June 28, 2012 at 8:25 pm #

      My apologies – the A in CAT was “Alternative” rather than Action. You can imagine, I’m inundated with acronyms, many of them the same across many different subject matters.

    • Greg Weirick June 29, 2012 at 8:42 am #

      Wise counsel Susan and thank you for your efforts to insure Inyo County involvement in the process.

      As far as compromise goes, yes there was a lot of discussion back and forth on selected roads, but the purposefully crunched time frame did not allow us to come close to dicussing every road under consideration.

      Furthermore, the Inventoried Roadless Area (IRA) issue is and was the real devil in the details. Hornick and Upchurch continually reminded us that virtually no roads could be designated in these areas that make up fully one third of the Inyo. The problem is that when Forest Planners originally laid out the IRA, there were three different classes of designation. “Suitable for Wilderness”, “Needs further Study” and Not Suitable for Wilderness”. Each of these made up approx. one third of the total IRA, which again makes up one third of the Forest. While there are few roads in the “Suitable for Wilderness Areas”, there are MANY roads in the remaining two areas and had the three classes been maintained, many of those roads would have been designated and we wouldn’t be here today debating this! Unfortunately, a new law was passed that removed the three distinctions putting all of the roads within IRA in jeapardy. This travesty went completely against the intent of the original designers of IRA and is the major factor in why so many reasonable roads have been closed. The boundaries of IRA should have been shrunk to only include the true wilderness areas, but the Forest failed to do so and I know it was an agenda driven decision. This fact is why I feel that the motorized folks that sat through it all were mere pawns! This is proven out by the fact that the Collaborative Teams alternative, was almost identical to the Forest’s alternative. Months of meetings and due to the atrocious limits placed on us, we still ended up with what we have today.

      Finally, I must correct an error in an earlier post. There are, or were 3,600 roads on the Forest, not the 6,000 that I first posted. Through the hard work of many Eastern Sierra participants, AAPL proudly submitted a comment on every single road. Early on we were instructed by the Forest Recreation Officer that any road that did not receive a comment could be closed? The onus was forced on the public to defend every single road or lose it? Couldn’t believe our ears when we heard this, but we prevailed, only to be told that only 400 of them would be accepted? We were told we hadn’t used enough big scientific words to make them “substantive”. Given the employees and resources of the FOI, it was easy for them to accomplish this task and considering many of them were indoctrinated in the same institutions of higher learning that the Forest folks came from, it’s no wonder their comments were accepted! Does the term pawn make more sense now?

  26. Margy Verba June 28, 2012 at 4:42 pm #

    Susan Cash, I applaud you! Thanks for chiming in with a voice of reason, as well as your background knowledge

  27. Mike Prather, Lone Pine June 28, 2012 at 5:30 pm #

    Thank you Susan.

  28. Big AL June 28, 2012 at 7:13 pm #

    Some good points Susan, the passion is running deep in this issue, and for good reason. It would be nice to see everyone on one page with this but I know how people can be, to many variables, to many agendas, no compromise, disdain for the other side. We see a glimpse of that here.
    You’re right about this being a nation of laws though, that is a big reason why people’s passions get raised to the extent they do. More and more laws, every day, telling you, you can’t do something or go somewhere because of some idiots that have no sense of care for anything except for themselves and what they want to do, no matter what they tear up.

    Laws are a good thing, to a certain extent, they can become excessive. But then some people can’t seem to do what is right either. And they can’t be expected to be held accountable anymore, oh no .. they can find a way to wiggle out of it.

    To me, I see this whole process as a scam, I mean I honestly feel that the overwhelming majority, from what I have seen, and have heard, was against this plan for the reason of so many of the closures were not legitimate.

    Sure it is actually a compromise in its victory for proponents, as they wanted to close everything, or as much as they could, there are still some roads open.

    If the plan was done legitimately, it wouldn’t have closed roads that it did, really, the basic plan calls for roads through sensitive areas, and redundant routes, or roads that were impassable.

    As I have said before, how is it so many roads were closed .. when there was so much opposition to it all?

    The Forest Service does not have trail crews now, their budget has been so cut back, that they can not run crews to do any work on trails or roads, yet $600,000.00 +/- in grant funds are made available for an organization to carry out this closure work, why can’t those dollars go to the FS for for them to do the work with their own crews? I know, it is not that simple, but do you get what I’m saying?

    I think, that instead of all of that money going to putting in all of these closures and a little restoration work .. it all could have been put into a lot of restoration work and a few closures, where legitimately needed. The trouble, or at least a good majority of it is in the lack of maintenance work that the FS should be doing, but budget cuts have saw to that. The increase of motorized vehicular traffic has had it’s share of responsibility as well, but if managed correctly, it can work for all users.

    Manage it, don’t just close it, and take the easy way out.

    Yes I hope more get involved, I think we can turn this around, and make a plan that can work for all .. not just the ones who appose motor vehicle use.

  29. Truth Seeker June 28, 2012 at 7:31 pm #

    Susan, you are very easily fooled by the USFS. What they did essentially is asked you if you would rather be kicked in the A** or punched in the face. You avoided being punched in the face and you think you got a good deal. In reality, the Forest Service never presented you with any good options, only bad options, road closures.

    You fell for it hook, line and sinker.

  30. Charles O. Jones June 28, 2012 at 9:24 pm #

    I have been traveling to the Eastern Sierra since the mid 1970’s. On many occasions I have run in to volunteers from the friends of the Inyo doing trail work which I find quite admirable. I have yet to see any members of the off-road community do anything but complain. Now the off-roaders may have particpated in volunteer work as well……but in over thirty years of visiting, I have never witnessed it. So if I were to side with one over the other, I would side with the workers over the complainers.

    One more thing – I only visit the area and I was aware of the planning meetings on this issue. If you live there and claim you didn’t know…..then shame on you for not paying more attention.

    • Big AL June 29, 2012 at 4:49 pm #

      Charles .. I know people on the open access side have done work, while it isn’t noticed like FOI work, it is done here and there, and yeah maybe it is time for open access folks to really get more involved, it is isn’t all empty complaining, yeah there are some who love to complain at everything, but there are some valid complaints here.

      I know of a couple people doing some work on the old mine road into Shannon Canyon. The road had suffered from a really heavy snow melt run off a few years ago, where the water had washed out a lot of the soil and left stretches of it just exposed rock. These two people went in and spent some time cutting water bars across the road to help preserve areas not yet washed out, and to help promote damaged areas to keep from being damaged further.

  31. Not a Left/Right debate June 28, 2012 at 9:50 pm #

    Susan is right about the public attendance. We need a watch dog group that monitors these NGOS (FOI and MLTPA). This is important because they don’t always work in the general publics interest as we have scene with this Travel Management issue. It does not seem to add up how the FOI spent $600,000 to throw logs in front of dirt roads.

    • Big AL June 29, 2012 at 4:54 pm #

      Yes I agree not left/right, that is what I was saying in earlier posts. They don’t always act in the interest of all users. But in all fairness, they have done a lot of good work otherwise in repairs and protecting some places of concern. But the fact still remains, that some road closures were entirely unnecessary.

  32. Mr. Pickle June 28, 2012 at 10:25 pm #

    Quit your cryin. There are thousands of miles of roads to ride your ohvs. You Just don’t want anyone telling youwhat to do. Grow up and enjoy your National Forests.

    • Big AL June 29, 2012 at 4:57 pm #

      And you like someone telling you what to do or you can’t do ..because of personal agendas beyond reason for protecting the forest Mr. Pickles?

      Nice way to put it, but I wonder how many would complain if it went the other way?

  33. Rob June 29, 2012 at 1:38 pm #

    “We are not anti-OHV,” said Corless.”

    Now she’s just out right lying!

  34. John Fairchild June 29, 2012 at 2:36 pm #

    People are using words like “lawbreaker” as a cudgel to advance a fallacy.

    Here’s the fallacy. Special interest groups make a lot of noise. Something must be done. “Meetings” are mandated to discuss fabricated issues and those conducting the meetings – bureaucrats – lose money and power unless regulation is advanced “for the common good”. This is preordained – never is it considered that the shrill special interests should be told that the bureaucracy won’t do anything, but will instead take the modest course.

    The direction set, public comments are sought. Comments that solicit more regulation always seem to be regarded as more “substantive” than comments that don’t. The predictable result emerges – stifling bureaucrats whose jobs depend on regulating take command, aided and abetted by their enabler special interest groups. This outcome is then hailed as “democracy” and those who don’t like it are accused of being “lawbreakers”, admonished for not attending meetings they never asked for or thought were necessary to remedy problems they did not believe existed, and lectured to “change the law” if they don’t like it. A law that got rammed down their throats in the first place to the tune of “you can’t always get what you want”. Susan, I do not believe you are occupying the high ground here. Now might be an opportune time to beat back the bureaucracy instead of defending it.

  35. Rob June 29, 2012 at 3:32 pm #

    I’ve been just about on every dirt road in Inyo and Mono Counties. I’m glad I had the oppertunity before it was all shut down and locked up.

    Good luck Mammoth Motorcycle Club you’d better get out there and ride while you can.

    I’m done with this topic

    whomever hyjacked my name, you can have it.

    • Big AL June 29, 2012 at 7:17 pm #

      Rob .. I hear ya .. this horse is about beat to death too .. and so many people ar so worried about whether or not you give your real name or not .. seems like a personal problem .. I could give a rats xss if someone gives their real name or not. Or if they don’t like that I don’t use mine or not. In fact, I have given my name a few times here, I don’t hide behind AL, it is part of my name, it’s just what I use.

      And the children who use other people’s names or nicknames to post things to crap on here to mess with people, well you just have to consider the source there LOL .. see ya Rob on another topic … lol

  36. Mr. Pickle June 29, 2012 at 7:22 pm #

    Fortunately Big Albert, there are still plenty of roads for you to cruise on so you are one lucky guy and it sounds like the Inyo
    Feds will work with you all to open some areas that they closed.
    so gas up that quad and enjoy!

    • Big AL July 1, 2012 at 12:10 pm #

      LOL Mr. Pickles .. thank you for that one, we’ll see .. always hope, but it is Allen hehe. gotta laugh sometimes otherwise you go crazy.

  37. A Way Forward? July 1, 2012 at 9:55 am #

    Many people write here as if the Travel Management Plan maps are the final Forest road system and that the TMP is done. It is not done. It is a two part process. What the Forest has done is identify its version of the extent of the existing road system, without paying much attention to reality on the ground. The next step in the TMP is to identify the minimum necessary road system for the Forest and then size the system to its minimum. (This is called Subpart A.) In the next step, the existing system of roads may be reduced even more. Be aware, while people talk about opening up a road or two, which is possible and a noble pursuit, people should be most concerned about the subpart A process which may result in closing even more roads – a lot more roads. The USFS has repeatedly stated that it intends to begin subpart A in the next couple of years, and that it is not going to do NEPA, which means there will not be nearly the public comment that they received in the first go-round.

    The fact that the TMP is not yet complete is good news and bad news. The minimum necessary road system could be much smaller than the current system (read many more road closures). The minimum necessary road system could also be much larger than the current maps. Is it not reasonable to define the minimum necessary road system as the roads that have existed for the past twenty years, and which have now proven themselves to provide a balanced use of the forest that supports the traditional uses of all Forest users?

    There is no reason that the USFS be left alone to decide what the minimum necessary road system is for our community. There is no reason to wait for the official start of the process. Organizations exist to allow the forest users to define what they think is the minimum necessary system and let the Forest know their thoughts. Perhaps the goal should be to expand the system to what people around here grew up with, and which provided fair access. A starting point could be to include any roads that appear on the 1980’s era USGS maps and that still exist on the ground.

    The USFS could have used this approach in Round One and chose not to. It does not have to be the same in Round Two.

    • Truth Seeker July 1, 2012 at 11:22 am #

      The Travel Management Plan is a big waste of time and is based on the false assumption that there is a problem. This is simply a federal employment act to keep unelected Federal Cubical Rats employed.

      Ask yourself this; If these unelected Forest Service Cubical Rats disappeared today, would anybody really notice? This is about Federal Control of our communities and them denying citizens their rights to travel on established roads, on the citizen’s lands, as they have done for decades. What will be their next move to take more rights from us?

      The only jobs program that has been a success is adding federal employees to the payroll to exert more control over the people. This is not a left right thing. It is all about control regardless of which side gets elected.

      Dump the Travel Management Plan. There was nothing wrong in the first place.

    • Big AL July 1, 2012 at 12:16 pm #

      Good post way forward .. We need to get the groups more organized get more folks involved.


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