Petroglyph story spreads worldwide

The LA Times story describes the major effort thieves used to steal the ancient art.

The Los Angeles Times, NBC News and even the BBC have reported more details on the vandalism and theft of ancient Paiute Indian petroglyphs from an area in the volcanic tablelands north of Bishop.

LA Times reporter Louis Sahagun wrote that at least four petroglyphs were cut out of the rock and stolen and dozens of others were scarred by “hammer strikes and saw cuts.” The Times story says it was visitors who found the vandalism and reported it to BLM. According to the Times, the thieves used ladders, electric generators and power saws to steal the ancient art. The story says they “gouged holes in the rock and sheared off slabs that were up to 15 feet above ground and 2 feet high and wide.”

The petroglyphs and the entire area are sacred to the Paiute Tribe. On the BBC news website, NBC News US spoke to Raymond Andrews, the Bishop Paiute Tribal Historic Preservation Officer about the petroglyphs. He said that the ancestors “etched messages in them, so they are sacred. People go and pray to them and try to seek guidance,” said Andrews.

The story quotes BLM Archaeologist Greg Haverstock as saying that there is an elicit market for any archaeological relic but he estimated the dollar value between $500 and $1500.

Raymond Andrews was also quoted as saying, “Like other indigenous groups, we believe in karma. Something is going to happen. We can try to investigate, but some things are out of our hands.”

In Bishop, BLM has stepped up surveillance of the area and offered a $1,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the thieves. Call 760-937-0301.

 

 

 

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96 Responses to Petroglyph story spreads worldwide

  1. Dee November 20, 2012 at 8:37 am #

    Just a very sad story on every count.
    Around 9 or 10 years ago I reported to the BLM a petroglyph removed from the tablelands, they basically had nothing to say, very surprisingly nothing at all. This petroglyph was at the end of the now closed road popular with rock climbers known as the Sad Boulders over looking the Owens river and the valley. One of the reasons for closing that road was to protect the archaeology, it didn’t seem to work out that way. I hate to open a can of worms but the rumor was this petroplyph was installed on a fireplace mantle in a new house under construction in Mammoth.

    After reporting this obvious stolen petroglyph and basically getting the cold shoulder from the BLM it really left me with a negative view of some of our local land mangers. I just couldn’t understand why they weren’t interested in a clear case of relics removed from public lands, then I realized they didn’t want to listen to me because I was very vocal about other issues on the tablelands involving various user groups and how it seemed as though they were being selective with their enforcement and public statements regarding various activities there.
    BTW, I wasn’t the only person that noticed the removal of this petroglyph 8 – 10 years ago, and again, the BLM did absolutely nothing about it and didn’t follow up on the report this petroglyph might be involved in new construction in Mammoth. Pretty sad enforcement, and we’re paying for that incompetence.

     
  2. Steve November 20, 2012 at 9:03 am #

    This line in your story is twisting history “vandalism and theft of ancient Paiute Indian petroglyphs”.

    The Paiute people have only been in this area for 500 years. The petroglyphs were made by an archaic people that lived in the area for over 10,000 years.

    The artifacts that have been found in this area show a big change at around 500 years. The stone tools used by the archaic people all date past the 500 year time line. The stone tools used by the Paiute people only date back 500 years.

    So please keep the history that the artifacts show is the real history of the area.

    The Paiute’s would get more support if they admit they did not make the petroglyphs and stop trying to steel the archaic people’s art work by claiming it is theirs.

    The petroglyphs are part of the history of all of us. And to steel them is to steel them from all of us. This is true of all ancient history and the artifacts that were left behind for all to see.

     
    • Benett Kessler November 20, 2012 at 9:22 am #

      If they belong to all of us, don’t they also belong to the Paiute Tribe? The Paiute Tribe members consider the creators of the petroglyphs their ancestors and from them and their ancient artworks gain spiritual help. Let’s respect that.
      Benett Kessler

       
      • Native Americans November 20, 2012 at 12:39 pm #

        Benett,
        Agreed. We should respect that.
        Then perhaps we should then respect the treaties made with ALL Native Americans.
        If memory serves me, everyone of the treaties was broken.

         
        • All Treaties have been broken November 21, 2012 at 11:09 am #

          Over 500 treaties were made with American Indian tribes, primarily for land cessations, but 500 treaties were also broken, changed or nullified when it served the government’s interests.

          The cause of Poverty is the iron-wrong system that was implement since day 1 to decapitate and handicapped the already poor and oppressed groups, mainly African Americans, Native Americans, Mexicans Americans, Hispanics and other Minority groups. The Constitution was written initially to benefit the white powerful and rich citizens, mainly whites. Douglas in his debate at Springfield Ill. with Lincoln, quoted “The Constitution was not written to include Blacks”. Since then the Constitution has been challenged by trying to perfect it has time go along, the trouble is though, it is not be perfected fast enough to accommodate the needs of the present time. untill the Constitution is corrected in a more expedient term things will be too slow to justify and Poverty will be the down fall of a great nation.

           
          • ...and the hatred continues November 21, 2012 at 2:03 pm #

            In re-writing its own history about Thanksgiving, white America tells a Disney like fairy tale story about the English pilgrims and their struggle to survive in a new and harsh environment. The pilgrims found help from the friendly Native American tribe Wampanoag Indians in 1621. But unfortunately for Native Americans the thankfulness of European settlers was very short lived. By 1637, Massachusetts governor John Winthrop ordered the massacre of thousands of Pequot Indian men, women and children. This event marked the start of the Native American genocide which would take a bit more than 200 years to complete, and of course to achieve its ultimate goal which was to take the land from Native Americans and to systematically plunder their resources. The genocide,started in 1637, marks the beginning of the conquest of the entire continent until Native Americans had been either exterminated for most, assimilated into white society for very few, or put in reservations to dwindle and die.

             
      • Steve November 21, 2012 at 9:00 am #

        I was not trying to say the petroglyphs don’t belong to the Paiute’s. I was trying to point out the fact that the petroglyphs were not made by them. But they like the rest of us they found them.

        I want to know more about the early first humans that were in this area. I read all I can find about it. If we are not open to what the research tells us and let false claims of what group created them. The we all will never know the real story.

        This is why it is wrong for someone to carve them from the rock and take them, so no one but them can ever see them.

        The creators of the petroglyphs knew they were leaving some thing for future beings to find and like you say “gain spiritual help”.

        And as far as the “their ancestors” aren’t all of us from the same group that came from Africa?

         
        • Benett Kessler November 21, 2012 at 11:03 am #

          Quite possibly so. You’re right about being open to research.
          BK

           
    • Not another Rightie making noise November 20, 2012 at 2:45 pm #

      Steve,

      Are you one of those Rabid Right folk who are making so much noise today that after the shellacking they took in the General Election, the GOP has been desperately (and wisely, if they ever want to win another election) trying to distance themselves from?
      Doesn’t this type believe America at large should be White, Anglo-Saxon and Protestant?

       
      • Big AL November 20, 2012 at 6:21 pm #

        Oh here we go .. make it a political issue!

         
        • All is political November 20, 2012 at 9:10 pm #

          Sorry Big Al … but if you haven’t noticed … EVERYTHING is a political issue.
          Ever watch Fox News or listen to Rush Limbaugh?
          It’s all you hear.
          Get used to it.

           
          • Big AL November 21, 2012 at 3:13 pm #

            Dr. … yes I understand that very well. political correctness, but iis advanced in cases such as this .. something that really has nothing to do with any political agenda or issue, gets thrown into the political arena by individuals who just can’t seem to function without causing a stir, making it a political issue.

             
          • RU4REAL? November 25, 2012 at 12:20 pm #

            Quit watching Fox News and stop listening to Rush Limbaugh! It’s all YOU hear because that’s ALL you listen to!

             
        • GOP not crazy about neocons November 21, 2012 at 10:42 am #

          Things the Crazy-Right is having difficulty with:

          Ohio really did go to President Obama. And he really did win. He really was born in Hawaii. He really is legitimately President of the United States. Again. The Bureau of Labor Statistics did not make up a fake unemployment rate last month. The Congressional Research Service really can find no evidence that cutting taxes on rich people grows the economy. The polls were not skewed to oversample Democrats. Climate change is real. Rape really does cause pregnancy sometimes. Evolution is a thing! BY us. Nobody is taking away anyone’s guns. Taxes have not gone up. The deficit is dropping, actually. Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction. The moon landing was real. FEMA is not building concentration camps. UN election observers are not taking over Texas. Moderate reforms of the regulations on the insurance industry and the financial services industry in this country are not the same thing as Communism. Giving aid to the poor is not communism. 71% of hispanics voted for Obama. Hispanics turned out in droves at the polls in Inyo and Mono County.

          No wonder the GOP is distancing itself from these lunatic notions (if they ever want to win another election) wishing the Far-right and Tea Party people would just go away?

           
          • Devout Liberal November 21, 2012 at 11:16 am #

            GOP not crazy about neocons,

            Finally us ” TAKERS” out number the “MAKERS”. It’s about time. That’s what the last election proved.

            It is much better to “RECEIVE” than “GIVE”.

             
          • Mark November 21, 2012 at 1:24 pm #

            Or to put it another way. There’s more people riding in the wagon then pulling the wagon.

             
      • Steve K November 21, 2012 at 9:55 am #

        Obama won the election. Maybe you should cheer up and get on with your life instead of obsessing over people you don’t agree with.

         
        • A culture of Downers November 21, 2012 at 4:44 pm #

          Steve K,

          You too, have been paying close attention to what’s been going on.
          Not sure of the medical/psychological term, but there are most certainly those who not only cannot put things to bed and get on with their lives, but are so stuck and obsessed, they think they are living in 1952.

          Never knew until recently how many downers exist in America today.

          On a mental level, their chronic anxiety impairs their judgement, increases their irritability, and hinders their overall effectiveness. They get most of the angst from those talk-radio pundits and after 3 straight hours of the negativity, are left with anxiety disorders. Many make their way to blogs like this erroneously believing their whining is therapeutic. It clearly is not.

           
      • When fascism comes to America November 21, 2012 at 10:05 am #

        Hmmm … 14 thumbs down. The Right on this clearly has a difficult time accepting that Obama has been elected … Again. They sadly believe that only one party should be in charge. Not two working together to solve our myriad of problems.
        And one party is in charge, what we learned in school was called fascism. I see Boehner and company are busy at work thwarting all Obamas suggestions and offering none of their own other than “Right is better than Left!”

        “When fascism comes to America – it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.”
        – Sinclair Lewis, from “It Can’t Happen Here.”

         
        • erik simpson November 21, 2012 at 2:09 pm #

          “And one party is in charge, what we learned in school was called fascism. I see Boehner and company are busy at work thwarting all Obamas suggestions”

          I guess what you are trying to point out is the Boehner and company are doing their best to thwart fascism? I doubt that’s what you meant, but it is what you said. Maybe it would be best to speak more quietly and reasonably.

           
          • Live with it November 21, 2012 at 3:56 pm #

            erik,

            The country and the state of California has spoken (in the General Election)
            Obama has been elected . Again.
            I suggest you try harder accepting this reality.
            Also that minorities are here to stay, and Latinos voted in record-breaking fashion … for Obama.

             
          • Mark November 22, 2012 at 9:11 am #

            Latinos are no longer a minority in many areas.

            A little birth control would go a long ways

             
          • Benett Kessler November 22, 2012 at 9:39 am #

            Why do you feel a need to limit Latinos?
            Benett

             
          • Mark November 26, 2012 at 12:49 pm #

            Benett I did not say I feel the need to limit Latinos. I do feel population is much of our invironmental problems. We as humans have a resposiblity to not ruin this World by over populating it.

            You were wrong to make such an assumption as that is not what I said. And it’s not the first time I’ve seen you go down this path.

             
          • Benett Kessler November 26, 2012 at 4:46 pm #

            Not sure which path you’re talking about. You did say something like there are a lot of Latinos and birth control would go a long way. Hey, no big deal, but it’s not hard to connect these dots.
            Benett

             
        • Tourbillon November 21, 2012 at 5:28 pm #

          Fascism, you beat that Lewis quote like a drum. It was said in bitter malice to smear his political enemies, which is probably why you love it.

          Wiser and more learned people have had a more measured take on tyranny. Here’s what one of the foremost political historians of all time, Alexis de Tocqueville, had to say in the early 1800s:

          “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.”

           
          • A culture of Downers November 22, 2012 at 7:25 am #

            Tourbillon –

            The majority of America and California have spoken at the polls.
            Live with it.
            You may no longer need any Limbaugh or Tea Party fascist idealisms after a while. May even make you feel happier.

             
          • Methinks thou protest too much November 22, 2012 at 1:03 pm #

            That’s funny Tourbillon,

            I don’t read Sinclair Lewis’ mega-popular novel “It Can’t Happen Here” and his warning – “When fascism comes to America – it will be wrapped in a flag an carrying a cross” as anything other than a very real warning about what actually happened in Germany could just as easily happen in America during tough economic and political unrest.

            Why the uber-sensitivity?

             
          • Tourbillon November 23, 2012 at 6:54 am #

            What’s funny Methinks is your failure (and Lewis’) to admit that facts mean anything. Fascism never arrived anywhere carrying a cross. It did not arrive in Germany carrying a cross. It did not arrive in Italy carrying a cross. It did not arrive in Spain or Japan carrying a cross. The only thing to commend Lewis’ uninformed remark was the predictable affinity among a certain smug part of the population for insipid jingos as surrogates for intelligent thinking.

            No, when dictatorship arrives here, it won’t be carrying a cross. It will arrive precisely as de Tocqueville predicted.

             
          • Tourbillon November 23, 2012 at 7:19 am #

            Culture, it is clear you don’t know what fascism is and think it’s just a handy insult to toss around because you’ve seen other people do it and thought them clever. Suffice it to say that as that odious system was practiced in Europe last century, it was highly statist, so any outfit such as the Tea Party that advocates for smaller government is kind of the opposite. The closest we’ve come in the States to fascist principles is a top-down centralized health care scheme and a nationwide mandate for all citizens to buy insurance.

             
          • Benett Kessler November 23, 2012 at 9:45 am #

            Whatever the label, we are the only developed country in the world that does not provide health care for all of its people. Without healthy people, a society falters, and in our case, the costs through the health insurance industry and certain medical practices mean we spend more money on health care than any other nation in the world. In addition to this, there is the quality of compassion for those who suffer physical and health pains and diseases. Labels can disguise reality.
            Benett Kessler

             
          • Bemused November 23, 2012 at 10:02 am #

            Exactly Benett. Our rapaciously capitalistic high-cost, low-result healthcare system is a national shame…

             
    • Leslie November 21, 2012 at 12:20 pm #

      Thank you Steve! I was born and lived in Bishop for 35 years and we knew the Paiute’s did not have anything to do with those ancient petroglyphs and they knew it to. But all of a sudden they lay claim to them which I could never figure out why. The Paiute’s are no relation to the archaic people at all. So could someone explain why they think they are entitled? My son’s went to BUHS and were taught all kinds of Paiute Indian History by Mr. Howard (who by the way I went all through school with) and would come home and tell me stories and believed what they were being taught and we would argue about it day after day. So thank you again Steve. And Benett I do not think anything in the possesion of BLM belongs to the people any longer. They can shut us out quicker than you can say BLM.

       
      • All Treaties have been broken November 21, 2012 at 1:28 pm #

        Sounds like Leslie has been raised to … ahem … dislike our Native Americans and the Paiutes especially.

        Such is the ongoing … ahem … dislike (and division) that continues amongst that certain type of American – The White, Anglo-Saxon Protestant kind.

        Oy vay!

         
        • Leslie November 23, 2012 at 11:27 am #

          I have no dislike what so ever. Grew up with them, went to school with them. Partied with them. Then all of a sudden in the 70’s they started to dislike the white people. I hadn’t changed a bit but they were becoming angry and lashing out, So I had to turn my back on them as they were blaming me for the past that I had absolutley nothing to do with.
          When we were kids in the 50’s and the 60’s we knew no difference, we were all the same kids so what happened? And as far as being raised to dislike them, that never happened in my house as my father has lived in BIshop for almost 80 years and he had many friends of the Paiutes, many close friends. The discussion of dislike never came up in his house. He only talked of the good old times. Sorry to burst your bubble.

           
      • Ana Howard November 23, 2012 at 9:27 pm #

        Are you serious??? Maybe you should have confronted Mr. Howard. You are just racist.

         
        • LOL November 24, 2012 at 9:21 am #

          Pretty funny rant Ana. When someone says something that you disagree with, call them a racist. This is getting pretty old.

           
          • Ana Howard November 24, 2012 at 8:36 pm #

            Thats not a rant LOL. Just calling like it is.

             
          • Big AL November 25, 2012 at 6:54 pm #

            I hear what Leslie is saying .. but some people can’t see it, what she really is saying. But she is only telling part of the story, her part of it and how she has seen it to be. That doesn’t make her racist as some would say.

            Things that happened in the 60’s and 70’s across the country changed a lot of people. With personal issues they had, and seeing all of the movement to right things that were done in the past, the fever that was sweeping the country, some changed in ways, where they turned against people they knew to be friends, or just people in general. This happened in both groups, just as much.

            Some people were strong enough in character to deal with what they saw and know the truth, others were so very bitter, they could not let go, and probably understandably so.

            Before this time, I can see, there was a sort of status quo with people .. with various relationships between the people, but everyone seemed to be only people.

            Like then as with now .. people pretty much have good relations with others, no matter what they are, it is who they are that matters most to people. You have all of the other types who seem to have a grudge and, or that is just how they know to act.

            You have the ones who are just flat out mean and cannot be happy, or it seems, unless they are making someone else miserable. You have the ones who seem to have the need to make someone pay for their misery, and this can all be in both groups .. it is just the dynamics of social groups and society as a whole.

            This is what we need to understand and to know, if we can look at people for who they are, and what drives them to be what they are, and know that in some cases we will not change them .. Only try to be ourselves and deal with everyone in the way we want to be dealt with.

            Not to throw it back in their face that does no good at all, it might give one a shallow sense of accomplishment or satisfaction, but what good did it really do?

             
          • Benett Kessler November 25, 2012 at 7:11 pm #

            Well said, Big Al.
            BK

             
  3. President Bush November 20, 2012 at 9:39 am #

    Maybe Friends of the Inyo can get some kind of a grant or loan of some kind to help with search efforts?? Might do a better job than our “land managers.”

    Just sayin.

     
  4. LOL November 20, 2012 at 2:02 pm #

    Enemies Of the Inyo are only good at blocking off roads to their fellow citizens. Leave the investigating to Law Enforcement and concerned citizens who might have observed something.

     
  5. enoughalready November 21, 2012 at 1:52 pm #

    It is starting to appear that the thieves were a bunch of blundering idiots. By some dumb luck, they have gotten away with it (at least for now). I sure hope that the Feds have gathered their finest to crack the case (we’ll have to wait and see). The reward of only $1000 is rather distrubing. I believe if they up’d it to least $10,000 these morons would start singing and rat-finking on each other in no time. Maybe if more details and facts were brought forth by the media it might trigger more useful infomation from the public.

     
    • Benett Kessler November 21, 2012 at 3:36 pm #

      What else do you want to know?
      BK

       
      • enoughalready November 21, 2012 at 7:15 pm #

        When and where?
        Locations with out being exact. Did I read that it took place in 5 location? 5 location within the same area, like different panels. Or 5 locations through-out the Table Lands? Its a big area. If it took place in one area has the BLM gone and checked on the other locations through out the Table Land?
        Did this occur last week, 2 weeks or last month. How often is the area(s) patrolled.
        Is the BLM planning on re-instating the volunteer program of Petroglyph watch groups?

        How did all the political jibberjabber bs spew make it in the comment section. Come on folks, stay focused.

         
        • Benett Kessler November 21, 2012 at 11:16 pm #

          I’ll find out some of those answers. The vandalism was discovered October 31. It’s our understanding that five or six panels in the same location were sawed out of the mountains. One was broken and left sitting at the site. Many other panels were damaged. Don’t know about other locations or frequency of patrols. People do seem to project their favorite topic onto just about anything.
          Benett

           
  6. Dingo November 21, 2012 at 1:54 pm #

    I’m not the judge but I think its safe to say that somebody is going to hell for sure.

     
    • FACTS v conjecture November 26, 2012 at 7:54 am #

      Thanks for supplying all those FACTS Big Al.
      Clearly in situations of debate, FACTS are always superior to conjecture, Right, Big Al?

       
  7. 100% Conservative November 21, 2012 at 2:10 pm #

    Rush Limbaugh blasted President Obama for thanking the Native Americans and using “every cliché” during the White House’s official Thanksgiving proclamation.

    The conservative radio talk show host said he was so shocked by Obama’s “wildly distorted” version of the holiday that he initially thought it was “a prank.”

    Limbaugh read the President’s words and added his own commentary.

    “This Thanksgiving Day, we reflect on the compassion and contributions of Native Americans, whose skill in agriculture helped the early colonists survive, and whose rich culture continues to add to our Nation’s heritage,” Obama said in the declaration.

    Limbaugh added, “…at their casinos and on their reservations.”

    In the proclamation, Obama said “This spirit brought together the newly arrived Pilgrims and the Wampanoag tribe — who had been living and thriving around Plymouth for thousands of years.”

    The radio host chimed in, “So, we were the invaders. The Indians were minding their own business. We were incompetent idiots. We didn’t know how to feed ourselves so they came along and showed us how and that’s what Thanksgiving is all about.”

    Limbaugh complained that Obama said “nothing about the Constitution in his Thanksgiving Day proclamation because he’s got a problem with it.”

    He explained to the caller what he thought the “real” story of Thanksgiving:

    “The true story of Thanksgiving is how socialism failed,” the radio host tells a caller, adding “the Indians didn’t teach us capitalism” and that “we shared our bounty with them… because we first failed as socialists.”

     
    • A culture of Downers November 21, 2012 at 5:07 pm #

      I sometimes wonder if the Rabid Right is aware that their government-hating rhetoric sounds exactly like what inspired Timothy McVeigh?

       
    • Jeremiah's Alter Ego November 29, 2012 at 1:36 pm #

      How is anybody as small minded as rush Limbaugh and how does anybody want to repeat anything he ever says.
      Hey 100% conservative sorry to say but your fundamentalist beliefs and ideology’s are not being picked up by the younger generations, so you may be proud of yourself but I see more young progressives more then liberals and conservatives put together.
      So in the future your beliefs will become primitive!!
      Lets just hope that we can clean up what all the primitive belief system made, cause it is a mess!!

       
      • The Power of Limbaugh November 29, 2012 at 4:53 pm #

        Rush Limbaugh, as every hardcore neoconservative knows, is the head guru for the neocon movement. Millions of people tune in to listen to his nasty anti-government rants 3 hours a day, 5 days a week, and reruns on weekends.
        His power and influence over these types is unfathomable. Certain psychological profiles (all negative and angst-ridden) are putty in Limbaugh’s fat little hands.

        Leaders in the GOP are realizing the folly in these wacky movements and are quickly and silently distancing themselves from the extremists that include: Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, et. al.
        If they ever expect to win another election.

         
        • Your Outta Your Mind like Joe Biden November 29, 2012 at 5:35 pm #

          Do you ever have any constructive input, as I see it you just babble.

           
  8. Big Rick OB November 21, 2012 at 7:22 pm #

    This is a story about stolen native american artifacts that were centuries old. 17 out of the 30 comments have absolutely NOTHING to do with the story at hand. You people can cry & bellyache all you want about who’s living in the White House, but it’s non-negotiable. DEAL WITH IT.

     
  9. Steve K November 22, 2012 at 12:01 am #

    The demand for artifacts like these will only increase over time. Unless some type of security is installed at these sites, this will happen again. 🙁

     
  10. Mark November 22, 2012 at 6:13 am #

    If the Tribe and their Casino can’t come up with a substantial contribution towards a hefty reward I question their own dedication to the preservation of the history of their people.
    I think at least a $10k donation is in order.

     
    • Trouble November 22, 2012 at 12:02 pm #

      Mark- after your birth control comment above, I’m sure the Tribe will honor your opinion.

       
      • Mark November 26, 2012 at 12:56 pm #

        It doesn’t bother me if they fail honor their heritage by following my suggestion. The ball is in their court, they may in fact be their own worse enemy when it comes to the survival of their heritage.

         
        • Big AL November 27, 2012 at 12:39 am #

          Yeah I hear ya Mark .. there are a lot of dynamics in what you are speaking, I totally get it.

           
    • Bob November 28, 2012 at 10:16 pm #

      Agreed, Raymond Andrews doesn’t seem to care all that much so why should we. Karma indeed.

       
      • Benett Kessler November 29, 2012 at 9:35 am #

        Come on, Bob. Each to his own view of the world.
        BK

         
  11. Thank you, Benett November 22, 2012 at 1:10 pm #

    Benett,

    Thanks for bringing attention to the not-so-hidden racist slur re: Our Latino brothers and sisters that poster Mark commented on.

    These are the types that are still incensed that their party quit talking about building an electric fence should be constructed along our southern borders during the General Election.

    The racism in America is dangerously approaching that of the Civil War era.

    But I suppose one has a constitutional right to hate non-white peoples.

     
    • Steve K November 22, 2012 at 3:40 pm #

      That’s a very ignorant comment. Your just saying that only white people are racist.

       
      • Benett Kessler November 22, 2012 at 4:27 pm #

        I don’t think anyone is saying that. Let’s face it – there are good and bad people of all colors and kinds.
        Look for character, not color.
        Benett

         
        • Thank you, Benett November 22, 2012 at 4:48 pm #

          Well put, Benett.
          Every now and then there is a trend in America … and it’s an ugly one.
          Assimilation and extermination policies (over Native Americans)
          Civil War (over black people)
          Segregation unrest in the 60s (over black people)
          Wanting to build fences along borders (over Latino people)

          And today, we have a black president whose very presence in the White House creates two entirely different mindsets:
          Wow! I never thought I’d ever see a black president in my lifetime! (the liberal point of view)

          and …

          Well, there goes the neighborhood. (the neoconservative point of view)

           
        • Big AL November 22, 2012 at 4:57 pm #

          Racism occurs in all races, people seem to define it to one race mostly, although, this one race in question has had it’s share of racism .. when it occurs in other races, it seems to be down played as some sort of defense or understandable behavior.

          Racism is just flat wrong who ever does it, and how can it ever end if everyone feels they need to pick up a rock so to speak, and throw it back, because someone threw one at them?

          I just love though .. how all of racism, intolerance and political jargon comes into this issue, that really has nothing to do with all of it.

          The issue of this theft, effects us all as one people .. no lines drawn in the sand, we all lose something very valuable in such a case. Something invaluable to our past and how it relates to our identity as a people.

          These drawing are a window to our past, and they belong right where they were, as they had remained for centuries.

          They were messages to others of their time, usually having meaning that others could use in their lives. Some might have had spiritual meanings for others.

          When I see them, I am drawn to their lives, I feel their message they left for others of their time, yet it speaks to us as well. More modern less intricate drawing left by newer people, within the last 3 to 4 hundred years ago, don’t lend so much as the more ancient ones did,

          Ususally reading ..Wm. Clark .. 1805 … show that some passed this way, for others to see their name. Not so lending of life knowledge for others to know such as big game in this area. water a days hike.

          All of this is valuable to us to know .. others went this way before us, and they lived lives and passed from this earth.

          Messages we can learn from their drawings .. about life and family. And someone cuts it out of the rock, removes it for all time, when it would have lasted centuries more, for those after us to see of those lives who were before us, before the newer generations. That is what this is about.

           
      • Not South Africa, but ... November 26, 2012 at 10:22 am #

        Steve K,

        As far as race relations in America, due to:
        The assimilation of Native Americans (the red man)
        The Civil War (the black man)
        The Segregation movement of the 60s (again the black man)
        The ongoing angst by some that a black man is in the White House (a black man)
        An ongoing angst towards Latinos, Muslims,

        I would say, that it would not be unreasonable to state that the race situation is a tad lop-sided in that it clearly favors the white man.

         
    • Big AL November 22, 2012 at 4:32 pm #

      I agree with what you’re saying mostly Dr, Facts. The comment Mark said only shows how he feels about a certain ethnic part of the population. Even though he feels frustration, it is wrong to make statements like that, but he has that right to say it. I think he’s an ass for saying it but that is his opinion and this is mine to disagree with it.

      This comment … “These are the types that are still incensed that their party quit talking about building an electric fence should be constructed along our southern borders during the General Election.”

      Is just as much asinine as his remark is, it is the same old rhetoric you come up with all of the time. And have made this issue a political issue as you do with everything, but you have that right .. just as I have the right to tell you how I feel.

      I just wish you would give that crap a rest, but I know I am asking too much, it is what you seem to thrive on, or live for.

      Have a good day, I hope your Thanksgiving was good.

       
      • Big hates facts November 23, 2012 at 6:56 am #

        Did you NOT know there are those on the far-right in America who want to build a fence around the entire southern border to keep Latinos out, Big Al?
        And did you NOT know racism was at the core of:

        Native American genocide?
        The Civil War?
        Segregation in the 60s?
        And today a growing hatred for Muslims, Blacks, Latinos?

        I know you hate facts, Big, but please pull your head from the sand. Racism is once again dividing this country and it comes from the far-right.

         
        • Benett Kessler November 23, 2012 at 9:53 am #

          The term, once again, is probably inaccurate. Still is more like it.
          BK

           
        • sierragrl November 23, 2012 at 10:49 am #

          I don’t listen to far right radio (hate talk) yet I share some of those negative views. I’m a NPR listening left wing liberal, yet I have a problem with muslims…well, to be honest, I have a problem with most religions, but at least the catholics don’t want to kill non-catholics…and yes, they do attempt to suppress women but not to the level of muslims. Why would I not have a problem with the muslim world, even if based only on their treatment of women? And I don’t agree with your statement about Native American genocide being about racism…that my friend, was about power and money…so was the civil war really…it was about the south not wanting to give up their lucrative lifestyle that relied on the cheap slave labor. segregation in the 60’s???yeah, that pretty much seems like racism.

          Not saying racism doesn’t exist, but don’t be blaming it on everything now or in the past…it plays a role but more often then not, money is at the root!

           
        • Big AL November 23, 2012 at 11:38 am #

          Dr. Facts I appreciate more facts on the subject in your latest post, and not all of the rhetoric you seem to enjoy. All of those are true, but that was then, this is now.

          With comments like … :And today a growing hatred for Muslims, Blacks, Latinos?” That is simply not true, it appears to be just rhetoric from one who seems to want to fan the fire. I may be wrong, but that is what I get out of it.

          I don’t think my head is in the sand. I have a better awareness about things just be relating to people around me, more than the information you are gleaning from talk radio and biased media reports. That is where I think you must be getting the thoughts you project here.

          I love how you present things with … “What Big Al doesn’t want to admit is a FACT” Like you’re talking to the audience in some sort of debate. Is this a platform for you to project a covert agenda of racism and division?

          I just do not get where you can correlate your banter about something such as a fence on the border with the theft of these petroglyths. Oh maybe it was way back up at the top when someone mentioned something about the Paiute people not being here long enough to lay claim to the rock art. Yeah, I can see that angle, but then you go off on a tangent about racism and whip up the flames. I’m just glad most here see it for what it is .. garbage, and choose to ignore you, except for a couple like me who call bullshit.

          Maybe Benett can post an article about the fence so you can vent, and try to convince people of your agenda.

           
          • Big AL November 23, 2012 at 11:40 am #

            It is true … there is hatred, it does exist, but it is not on the increase more than it ever was. It does … come from all races as well whether you like to admit or not, it does.

             
          • Benett Kessler November 23, 2012 at 1:19 pm #

            We need to focus on issues right here at home. If we can solve problems between individuals and communities, there is hope for the world. It starts one person at a time, with a great dose of self-honesty.
            Benett

             
          • Jeremiah's Alter Ego November 26, 2012 at 10:51 am #

            I like your style Big Al.

             
          • Big AL November 27, 2012 at 12:06 am #

            Jeremiah … I just try to be honest in how I see it, I really feel we can not get past it if we keep throwing it around .. know it happened, and know this is now, it’s a new page in the book. How can we make it better?

             
      • Where today's racism comes from November 23, 2012 at 6:59 am #

        http://newsone.com/16051/top-10-racist-limbaugh-quotes/

         
        • What's the neocon definition of the word Libera? November 25, 2012 at 6:44 pm #

          The neocons, who were responsible for the GOPs loss in the General Election (so say the GOP officials) don’t like it when you bring up their guru Rush Limbaugh’s racist trash-talking.

          I have a question for the neocons on this blog. And it’s a simple one.

          Please define the word liberal for me.

           
          • Liberal: Live-and-let-live November 26, 2012 at 10:26 am #

            LIBERAL (from Webster)

            – belonging to the people, to grow up, rise, suitable for a free man; not restricted; giving freely; generous; large or plentiful; ample; abundant; not restricted to the literal meaning; not strict; tolerant of views differing from one’s own, broad-minded; not orthodox or conventional as distinguished from monarchies, aristocracies, etc., favoring reform or progress; favoring political reforms tending towards democracy and personal freedom for the individual; progressive; implies tolerance of other’s views as well as open-mindedness that challenges tradition; advanced.

            Please supply if you will, the Conservative’s definition of LIBERAL.
            Thanks.

             
      • Fence Factoid November 23, 2012 at 7:08 am #

        What Big Al doesn’t want to admit is a FACT –

        In 2006, Congress authorized the Secure Fence Act – a multi-billion dollar plan to build hundreds of miles of fencing along the southern border of the United States to stem the flow of undocumented immigrants and provide security from potential terrorism. But what was built to fight illegal immigration has turned into a nightmare for many Americans living along the U.S.-Mexico border. The fence, which will cover less than half of the actual border, inexplicably cuts through the middle of some properties, while leaving others untouched. Many question if it can keep people from sneaking in at all.

         
        • Benett Kessler November 23, 2012 at 9:50 am #

          The Great Wall of China seemed to work well, in a war scenario, for the Chinese (700-200 BC and beyond) who kept guard stations at certain intervals with soldiers and barracks at the ready. Our border situation is very different and needs a different solution.
          BK

           
    • Mark November 26, 2012 at 12:59 pm #

      Read my post to Benett, then look at all your negitive votes.

       
  12. Trouble November 23, 2012 at 11:28 am #

    It’s funny to me that exact same people who want to build up walls around all of us, are the same ones who glorify Reagan for his tear down this wall speach. Hypocrites in my book.

     
    • Maybe they are getting it November 24, 2012 at 4:58 pm #

      I find it interesting that during the last General Election, all we were hearing from the candidates on the Right were how important it was to build an electric fence around the southern border of the U.S.
      This year … complete silence from them about the subject.

       
  13. ferdinand lopez November 23, 2012 at 1:58 pm #

    go to a latin american country sometime and see if thats how you want your country to be,anyway back to the thefts,money laying on the ground is gonna get picked up,these days anyway p.s.cant show your true opinions about how you feel about how certain races are destroying america,cause that would be rascist,when its actually just being american,freedom of speech.etc,its just being predjudice caused by life itself

     
  14. Trouble November 23, 2012 at 10:53 pm #

    Ferdinand- i like a good racist joke every now and then, but that doesn’t mean I have to believe I’m one!

     
  15. Ken Warner November 25, 2012 at 10:24 am #

    Needing to control our Southern border is not racism. That’s nonsense. It’s to keep the drug fueled insurrection from spreading to our Southern states and even farther. Do you know how many people have been killed in Mexico in the last 5 years?

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57357503/mexican-drug-war-toll-47500-killed-in-5-years/

     
    • Fence Factoid November 25, 2012 at 6:39 pm #

      Seems to me Ken, that the fence/wall Michelle Bachman and other neocons insist on building along the enter southern border fence is not working.
      Now what?

       
      • Ken Warner November 25, 2012 at 9:52 pm #

        Please cite your evidence that, “…the wall [] is not working…”

        And who said “the wall” was the only option to control our border?

         
  16. All is politics today November 26, 2012 at 10:13 am #

    Ken,

    The intent of mentioning the fence at all, was a reminder of how during the election before last, one political group took ownership of the situation and even promoted the idea that it would be economically feasible and practical to build a Great Wall of China around the entire southern border to thwart the mass-migration to the U.S.

    This last election, the very same political group was conspicuously silent on the subject.

    Why do you suppose this is?

     
  17. Jeremiah's Alter Ego November 26, 2012 at 10:48 am #

    The more I look read, I think we are so far from how the indigenous people lived. We all feel we a entitled to living these convenient lifestyles with Air conditioning in every building and inventions to make our lives easier.
    But in reality our Mother Earth is hurting for the return of those Indigenous beliefs and ways that cherish other living beings and all components that make our lives possible, Rather then collectively as a nation we take it all for granted!!
    I am gonna reply to Leslie’s comments above, If you feel the local tribes shouldn’t feel like they should be entitled to those that walked in the same path for thousands of years then who should it be entitled to? say for instance LADWP? I mean they own a strong percentage of the valley so someone could make that argument, or should the miners that came in the valley back in the day be able to claim it? I mean Humans really make me sick to think they know what is best for all when really we put our needs first whether it works best for all or not!!! Plus I read resentment in Leslie’s comment.

     
    • Big AL November 27, 2012 at 12:31 am #

      Jerimiah, I believe they belong to us .. us being everyone in the present generation, past generations, and future as well. The native people can have a family bond with it, that is true.

      But all can have ownership in it, because it connects us with those who went before us. I can feel that connection with them, when I see evidence, when I can touch it, and even read of it. or hear someone relate their knowledge of the past. whether it be recent past or ancient times.

      I can feel them when I think of their live, try to see the world through theirs. I wonder so much, how they would react, if they were brought to the future and see how the world is now, might be terrifying for them or amazing and bewilderment, or all of the above.

      I am not native, but I can still go and get spiritual in such places, commune with them, I think they would smile and welcome me. My family has been in this land for over 300 years, I don’t say that boastingly, I say it proudly, this is my home where I have a long family history as well, not as long as some in the native community.

      Like seven generations, there was a fore father who was a devoted friend of the native people as was his brothers and sisters. I believe he was the first agent over native affairs in the frontier lands, he was a true friend of the native people from what I hear, I know we can not say that about others.

      I was always taught to respect everyone for who they are, not what they are. I know some native people I love and trust with my life, I know some that aren’t worth the powder to blow em up with. But then there are a lot of people in them two boxes that come in a variety of colors.

      I think the resentment you sense in Leslie’s letter, is that friends turned away from her not for who she is, rather what she is .. in their eyes.

       
      • Jeremiah's Alter Ego November 27, 2012 at 10:21 am #

        I hear ya on the connection of the past and present to us all but the they belong to us can be up for debate. I have no problem agreeing it belongs to people that would continue to respect it and see to it that it presence can be open to all who respect it like it should be whether they have noticeable Native blood or not (I like the color blind attitude cause we are all human and it wasn’t the skin color that made the indigenous ways it was the beliefs and respect for all living habitats). So yeah it does belong to us but in or current society of capitalism we can’t expect this to not happen when there is collectors and those that feel it belongs in there realm rather then open to everybody.
        It does connect us with the past but I still can’t get it out of my head this is a reflection of how this is the difference of how the natives lived and how we live now, I mean this type of desecration is new. This just plain out sucks man.
        I am gonna say those that lived before us are saddened by the sequence of events that played out here on our Mother Earth and the connection of the past, present, and future is evermore broken the more we consume natural resources at a selfish rate to the generations after us.

         
        • Big AL November 27, 2012 at 7:27 pm #

          Yeah I hear ya Jeremiah .. I totally agree those who were here then would be and probable are very sad to know how we are treating things and each other. … and yes, it is a reflection of greed, more than capitalism, but then yeah .. the two walk hand in hand a lot of the time, sometimes the alter is not like the former, but yeah I hear ya.

           
  18. Big AL November 27, 2012 at 7:29 pm #

    And yeah … it sucks!

     

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